A couple of questions at a time like this...

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Mike F

<snip>

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching, does Hartley also belong on that "list"?

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

[doctajones428]

1) No

2) No

/thread

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

I don't think you can pin it on Iginla alone; the reason this group is doing so well, is because they are all really playing for a job next year, this is their one big chance to prove they belong at the NHL level. If you had players who knew they would be back next year, the effort would definitely not be there (just look at Edmonton)

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching, does Hartley also belong on that "list"?

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

1) I don't think so, more time is needed to make a decision on Hartley.

2) Quite possible. Again, a lot more time is needed to judge whether that is the case and we may never truly know. It is fair to speculate on though.

[djsFlames]

I think those two suggestions are pretty extreme. Especially the first..

However, I do think Iginla has hindered this organization for several years now in that too often moves were made around Iginla-to fill his requirements. It was the revolving door that was his center and left side..all those players (not one of whom was a true elite) that Sutter spent picks, including 1st rounders on. Those picks that, if kept, could have themselves turned out to be elite or high end talents for the team and could've, by this or last year, been developed enough to play alongside him and provide that strength down center or the left side. The band aid approach that was seen for many years was entirely due to replicating the 2004 run and building around its two stars, Iggy and Kipper. If Iginla were moved out years back, you can bet that most of those moves would not have been made, and we'd be seeing more youth in the 20-28 age gap range currently suiting up for the team. And perhaps with that, a different and possible more favorable present day situation.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Especially the first..

I agree with you...

It was a theory put forth in that thread from a year ago that coaching was primarily to blame for the Flames' lack of success... and now this year with a coach like Hartley, the team still sank to the bottom... then Iggy and JBo were moved out, and the team now seems like it has begun to find its way (albeit, too little too late for this year). We're talking about consistently winning against quality teams that are jocking for playoff positions!

[SOMBRI2]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching, does Hartley also belong on that "list"?

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

I think we have to outlook further to justify your 'thoughts'.

I don't have full list of playoff teams performance. but based on what I saw, the team could have beaten Anaheim and Detroit...then it comes down to all the question marks surrounding the locker room. Fine... Well, cancers in the locker room? Arguable...Nonetheless, they are all gone if there were really any...At least now we start with a new core. And this new core has been impressive given their experience...wait and see. Any coach could get tuned out. But how many coaches in the last decade was given a fresh slate of ice to assemble the team? Probably only D. Sutter was able to...he got some successes.

Hartley should be a good coach. With Gelinas and their associates. I think it is ok decent.

No one could predict what potentials they can bring out from the players.

Although, Chicago fired Savard 4-5 games in for Quenville, who eventually led the team to Cup win...with a strong roster.

Strange things could happen in the new NHL era.

[TSXCman]

This sort of is like in the olden times when the Earth was believed to be the center of our solar system, possibly galaxy.

There are 29 other organic, changing teams in the league. Each of them need a combination of circumstances to do with coaching, players, effort, etc. to win. To try to pin it on individual things is hard to do accurately, and a bit unfair to do.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TSXCman

This sort of is like in the olden times when the Earth was believed to be the center of our solar system, possibly galaxy.

There are 29 other organic, changing teams in the league. Each of them need a combination of circumstances to do with coaching, players, effort, etc. to win. To try to pin it on individual things is hard to do accurately, and a bit unfair to do.

Bryz, is that you?

[kyuss275]

1) to early to tell

2) Not for his entire career but for the last 2 years , yes. ( i am not talking playoffs)

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching,

Can you support this part for me? Seems like your first question is a false premise.

The players play the games, and there was more than one coach over that time, including coaches who had success at other times/places. Sorry, but this isn't "clearly" "the reason," imo.

[Rifleman]

It seemed the players looked to Iginla to lead. If the team expected a big goal, or someone to scrap and light a fire under their collective assess, Iggy was looked on to do it. Sometimes having one player shouldering too much of the responsibility is a bad thing.

I definitely notice a different energy after he was shipped out. The players now are playing for next year, and the energy is refreshing to see. Whether they can keep it up for an 82 game schedule is doubtful.

[Buff]

Answer to the first question is no.

Answer to the second question is partly yes, mostly no. Iginla was the leader of the team and he was a great leader. He took the team on his back in '04 and with the help of Kiprusoff, made it to game 7 of the Stanley Cup final. After that the legend of Iginla was too much for Iginla or the Flames to handle. This was Iginla's team, guys would come in here and not want to step on his toes, they would let Iginla do all the leadership stuff. That was evident when Owen Nolan came here and on a interview on FAN960 was asked about being a leader and he replied with something to the effect of "This is Jarome's team, I'll leave that to him unless he wants me to take on a more prominent leadership role". Perhaps Jarome had too much pride to admit that he needed more from the other players who could be leaders, perhaps management got players who were done with being leaders and just wanted to collect paychecks and their personalities and laisez faire attitude where just too much for Jarome to counteract. Who really knows where exactly the answer lies, but Jarome is/was a great leader but the problems were too much for one guy to take care of. With Jarome gone and a lot of the change happening over the past few years, the wakeup call finally came to this team. This is a new era, there is no Jarome Iginla to lean on, now is the time for each and every player to step up and be a part of a team who works together, not a team who expects that one guy to get them to where they need to be.

[ricardodw]

How is it the coaches fault that GM Sutter went and signed Bouwmeester?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching, does Hartley also belong on that "list"?

Not fair to judge a coach on what will amount to be half a season. That said I do like the way he is able to motivate players to take on a greater role with this team. The play of Backlund and Brodie are good examples. It will be interesting to see how he fairs next season.

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

It's my view that the rest of the team relied too much on Iginla for goals and leadership in the dressing room. Now that he's gone the team as a whole has taken it upon themselves to replace what he took with him. The end result has been a postive one.

[Itse]

Hartley should obviously take the fall for making us lose in the draft!

But more seriously, he seems to be doing just fine with a young roster, and I would imagine that his positivity would be beneficial to a group of kids that will inevitably have a rough next season.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

1) With the reason for why the Flames have not seen the 2nd round since '04 nor the playoffs at all since '09 clearly being coaching, does Hartley also belong on that "list"?

No. I don't believe the team's failures were a result of coaching.

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

I'll just say that it appears the answers may have been in the room after all. We won't be for sure until next season when the adrenaline wears off, but early returns suggest the atmosphere in the dressing room may have been the result of certain quantities recently moved and replaced.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

2) With the Flames winning 6 of their last 8, is it fair to entertain the thought that Iginla maybe just maybe might have been part of the reason for the team's lack of success over the past 8 seasons (or, his entire career outside of '04)?

Oh goodie! One of those ridiculous "I hate Iginla and am searching for reasons to justify it" posts!

Tell me, why do you point to our winning six of our last eight to justify this silly opinion, but not the fact that we lost five of our first six after the trade, to argue that perhaps Iginla made us better, hmmm?

Or hell, why don't you take a look at what Iginla is doing in Pittsburgh - a team absent its two best players - yet isn't missing a beat, in large part because of Iginla?

We're winning because the team is loose with nothing to play for and because the kids are out to prove themselves. This has happened a thousand times before, and will happen a thousand times again. It has nothing to do with the disingenuous "its Iginla's fault" garbage that certain people like to spout.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

As many have already stated, there are tones of reasons we are putting up some wins right now. Those certainly include: team has nothing to play for, others take us lightly and temporary high of youthful enthusiasm.

But I also don't doubt that the departure of Iginla is also one of those reasons. And not cause he's a bad player, or bad leader, or anything negative on Iggy at all. He's a great player still, and I don't doubt he'll show us that many times again before his career is done. But when things no longer have synergy, they go bad, regardless of the value or abilities of the individuals involved. They symbiotic relationship between Iggy and the Flames died a natural death sometime between the end of the 2009 season and the end of the 2010 season. No one can no for sure when, but it came about when it became almost impossible for both parties to accomplish their goals together, win a Stanley Cup. The Flames did not have the team assembled that could win, and they no linger had the assets available to acquire what was needed to improve the roster and make it a winner with Iggy on it. At that point it was over.

The Flames, and Iggy likely, continued to try and find ways around the truth, to make it work, but really a futile effort. Trying to force something like that is just bad, could never work and actually makes things worse. Which is why, now with his departure, despite him still being the best player we had on this roster, and despite him still possessing all the great qualities he had in 04 that helped us to the finals, the Flames actually benefit from subtracting him, as it removes the lack of synergy from this team and allows them to start to build a new path, versus going in circles. Counter intuitive with a player of Iggy's pedigree an character, but a true example of addition through subtraction.

[GGG]

Its the Ewing theory.

Grantland's Bill Simmons came up with the name for it but it is when a team loses its top player and everyone says that will crush the team and the can't win without them but instead they actually play better.

Next year is the real Ewing theory test for the flames. No Iggy, Kipper, and Jbo, will the flames be better.

I think the biggest reason this might happen is that the team will have no other choice but to play hard to win. There is no Iggy or Kipper to put the team on their back and win games. Over the last 5 years Iggy and Kipper have been winning less games on their own and the rest of the team hadn't stepped up to fill those gaps. I am hoping for a team like Phoenix has had. Everyone works hard, difficult to play against (hopefully more exciting).

So in a way keeping Iggy the last two years has led the team to where it is. I think the entire mentality from gm's, to coaches, to players was find a way to get Iggy and Kipper to make us win rather than find a way to win as a team. When that permeates through every decision you end up with a team that declines with its stars ability. To reiterate this is not a slite against Iginla only a statement that he can no longer carry a team.

Detroit was able to hang around so long mainly because as stars aged they changed the stars roles rather than changing the team to fit the stars. Yzerman became a 3rd liner. It is only recently with Lidstrom retiring that they didn't have someone ready to take those minutes.