I'm curious what people think about Leland Irving. I'm pretty hopeful about him. Here are some things I've noticed:
- He is extremely positionally based. He rarely lets in goals when he's set up as oppose to Kiprusoff, who will occasionally let in those weird "impossible angle" goals. He's flexible enough to make saves anywhere in the net as long as he's able to see the shot.
- Rebound control is average. Nothing really unique about it, but should be workable at an NHL level.
- He's not outstandingly fast. As Flames fans, we'll need to get used to not seeing amazingly fast goaltenders like Kiprusoff. The biggest difference is that Kiprusoff seems to see exactly how far to push himself when he's "on", where as Irving seems to guess a little.
- He doesn't have great puck tracking. He seems to lose the puck if it's behind bodies.
- Inexperience. This is expected, but you can see his confidence go up and down quite a bit. He was lights out against the Wild and was willing to get himself off the goal line. Against the Stars, he was more timid. One user (dustyanddaflames) pointed out in the GT that he could have been rattled by the shootout a bit, and it makes sense.
- A bit of nervousness. Irving's feet are pretty active compared to Kiprusoff, who is made of ice I'm pretty sure. He swings his legs around a bit when moving and dances around in a single spot a little.
- Willing to move the puck himself. He seems more willing to play it than Kiprusoff, though he isn't able to do the down ice passes yet.
In my opinion, he looks exactly like most 24 year old NHL goaltenders with NHL potential. A quick search yields that about half of NHL starts seem to be in the NHL at his age.
Here's my spoilered breakdown of goalies who played above 40 games last year (1A goaltender or higher, effectively. Injuries were not considered):
Spoiler!
At 24, was a starter (10): Theodore, Luongo, Brodeur, Lehtonen, Lundqvist, Price, Fleury, Pavelec, Ward, Khabibulin
At 24, was a backup/journeyman starter (11): Miller, Varlamov, Bryzgalov, Thomas, Anderson, Smith, Quick, Vokoun, Halak, S. Mason, Gustavsson
At 24, was in the AHL/Lower league (11): Crawford, Howard, Niemi, Kiprusoff, Hiller, Rinne, Garon, Dubnyk, Backstrom, Nabakov, Roloson
From what I can see, young starters are pretty limited to exceptional goalies and Thrashers picks. Of these, 4 top were 10, 2 11-30 picks, 2 2nd round picks, 2 were late. This means it seems to trend towards early picks being starters.
From this, I think Irving (late 1st), if he proves to be a suitable backup this year, is on track to be an NHL goaltender if he continues to develop.
But what do other users think?
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Last edited by kirant; 02-13-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Honestly, although I'm sad Kipper is injured.... in a way im glad the Flames are being forced to play Irving. I love Kipper, but the organization has done a terrible job riding the guy and we are very lucky that Kipper has been as durable as he has.
Let the kid play for 2 weeks and see what you have. If it is positive. Split the starts about 2-1 or 3-1 the rest of the way.
The team needs to play consistent no matter who is in net. Having Kipper on the sidelines may force the team to learn this.
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I disagree with his positioning. He tends to retreat back into his crease too quickly, giving the shooter more net to look at. We've seen this in two of the Columbus goals, and the shots that squeaked through him and almost went in today. His lateral movement could use some work as well.
In my opinion, his biggest assets are his flexibility and his ability to handle the puck, which is better than I would expect from a 24 year old.
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I for one think Irving has what it takes to be that #1 goalie the Flames or any other NHL team is looking for.
He hasn't played in over a half a year or something, gets the backup goaltending position behind kipper, doesn't get to play the first 10 games, you can't expect a guy like him to get back to where he once was after sitting for half a year. He will get his groove back once he gets a couple more games into the shorten NHL season.
Last edited by t0rrent98; 02-13-2013 at 11:09 PM.
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I think he's been fine, people are expecting him to play like a proven starter right now which is unrealistic. He's gotten off to a better start than Kipper.
The Bad:
Positionally not strong
Bobbles the puck way too much (how many shots squeak through him?)
Inconsistent over the last 4 years (he is young, however).
Terrible rebound control
He is still a young goalie. He shows flashes of near brilliance, followed by shakiness.
I look at Irving in this way:
There is a possibility that he could one day be a starter in the NHL. He may develop into one. However, he may never develop into one. In my opinion, the Flames have always been patient with his development (much more than any other goalie I can think of that they drafted). How much more patience should they show Irving - keeping in mind they have Ramo, Brossoit and Ortio in the system that could very well become much better (or never develop at all)?
I really wanted Irving to succeed last year. I thought last year would be his 'big showing', but then he had a bit of a let-down. Say what you will during the lockout, but 2 AHL career goalies passed him. This has been a constant theme with Irving - having lesser ceiling goalies pass him.
Can Irving still become an outstanding goalie in this league? Well, Tim Thomas did it. Giguere was not very well thought of from the Flames' organization, and went on to prove himself somewhere else. However, how long does an organization wait and invest in a prospect before that prospect proves himself? When should an organization cut bait?
Flames are in a predicament. They have an excellent prospect in Brossoit turning pro next year. They have what appears to be a solid goalie coming to the NHL next year. They have Ortio who probably needs at least another year of seasoning on the Heat (probably more) but who really does have lots of upside and who the Flames SHOULD be trying to further develop. Do the Flames keep Irving, or do they cut bait and turn their attention to other assets to develop?
Irving isn't HORRIBLE. He definitely has moments of brilliance out there. You have to really hate him personally if you can't admit that. However, you have to also be totally in love with him not to see he still has much more developing to do (and no guarantees that he will EVER develop enough to be any more than a below average backup even). If the Flames had no other choices, the answer would be very easy - invest in Irving for another couple of years. What is the right answer when you look at who else the Flames have in their stables (not even counting Gillies, who could just stay in the NCAA for the next 3.5 years) is the real question.
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From what the stat line says, he was playing 1B to Toskala in the AHL. He did extremely well (.926 save %, 2.44 GAA, both better than Toskala)
Kiprusoff was better statistically, but Toskala played more games by a small margin, so I can't discern exactly what was going on.
Also, When injuries hit SJ and Kiprusoff was given the starting job while Nabokov was out, he did not perform well for his first stint as starter. He had played 20 games as a backup when he was 25, and did well then, but as a starter the next season he went 5-14 with a 3.25 GAA, 0.879 SV%.
We all know what happened when a team gave him a second chance as a starter...
I don't think Irv has progressed to a point where playing him in the NHL makes sense.
He could develop into a starter still but his play and stats dictate to me a player who needs more AHL time to develop his game. I didn't expect him to be ready at 24, and I don't think he is. Maybe by 26. Maybe he needs to go the Europe route for a season or two. He's not an NHL starter, and we shouldn't pretend because the Flames won a couple that he's giving quality starts.
Does it really matter? I don't think Irving is in the flames plans going forward unless he plays like kipper. That's not going to happen. Flames want ramo over next year. I don't see them trading kipper until they know what Ramo is like.
I guess if he plays well enough and some other team has an injury he could be traded at the deadline.
Irving looks like most back-ups in the NHL do/would. He is decent enough to get the win but unlikely to steal you games and if he has to play a couple of games in a row you can get by but anything longer is likely going to be trouble.
He looks fine for a back-up and may progress to be a starter at some point (but I think that is unlikely).
For the short term he is the best thing the Flames have got, and outside of trading away a big package, the best they will have until Kipper gets back.
Am I the only one who cringes every time the other team gets a shot on net?
He has been adequate - you can't argue with 2-1-1 - but there have been too many weak goals.
The Flames work their butts off to get a goal and then Irving - at least 3 times in teh last 3 games, and arguably 5 times - immediately gifts one right back, crushing the Flames' momentum.
Now that he has had a few games to get his feet under him, he has to be better.
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Am I the only one who cringes every time the other team gets a shot on net?
He has been adequate - you can't argue with 2-1-1 - but there have been too many weak goals.
The Flames work their butts off to get a goal and then Irving - at least 3 times in teh last 3 games, and arguably 5 times - immediately gifts one right back, crushing the Flames' momentum.
Now that he has had a few games to get his feet under him, he has to be better.
No, you're not alone there.
He does have potential but he's so raw at this point that you don't really know what he will and won't save. The guy has made a few saves he's had no business making, but has also let a disturbing number of softies get through him.
Am I the only one who cringes every time the other team gets a shot on net?
Nope, but its because Flames fans have to understand this: Irving isn't as good as Kiprusoff. He certainly isn't as good now and probably will never be; because Kiprusoff is a elite goaltender in this league. Its unfair to watch a average performance and be disappointing because he didn't stand on his head like Kiprusoff does.
Honestly, the consistency and getting beat out by AHL goaltenders does scare me, yes. However, I judge Irving by his potential, and on his good days, he shows he can be a NHL goaltender in this league. IMO if he has what it takes, the Flames have to let him ride it through and get comfortable. Nobody likes to be on the hot seat, and the Flames just have to let him carry the ball and let him run with it - know that he can make a mistake and they will stay by him, and there isn't a AHL rockstar ready to take his spot.
Rebound control - I just attribute it to harder shots and faster players in the NHL. I think he can adjust.
Happy feet - yeah, I think he gets caught a bit. And yes I think he gets overwhelmed by the speed of the game and doesn't track as well... but I also watched a decade of Kiprusoff, so my expectations are unreasonable.
All in all, I think Irving will get there and he will be a starting goalie. I have complete faith. (Disclaimer: I also had faith in Curtis McElhinney; wtf do I know)
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I have been pleasantly surprised with Irving so far. I think he has taken his chance and run with it and seems to be getting better each game. Maybe a little push and a little faith in him was all he needed.
He definitely has room to improve, and will need to improve if wants the number 1 job, but I think he needed this opportunity as his growth in the A seemed to be stagnating.
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root Am I the only one who cringes every time the other team gets a shot on net?
On the other side, I've been cringing every time the other team gets a shot on net with Kiprusoff too. Kipper hasn't been very impressive to start this season or to start other seasons as well. This is one of the reasons he's gotten 70 starts regularly because the coach has too play him early a lot because he takes a while to get sharp. I don't expect him to come back and play lights out right away either. This is a great opportunity for Irving to show he's up to NHL standards. I hope he doesn't blow it for his sake and the teams.
As long as Irving plays decently he should be able to compete for a spot next season. Ramo hasn't proven anything in the NHL yet either.
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Irving, level of progress at 24?
