Harper's comments about the Bloc

[MarchHare]

By now I'm sure everyone has heard about this, but if not, here's the relevent quotation:

I think because [Bill C-38] is only being passed with the support of the BQ, I think it will lack legitimacy with most Canadians. The truth is most federalist MPs will oppose this legislation.

Do you think Harper is correct that because the bill will only pass with the support of the separatists that it lacks legitamacy with Canadians? Or is he wrong because the elected Bloc MPs have the same voice in Parliament as any other party?

Also, what would your reaction be if in an alternate universe the budget was defeated last month and Martin had said the following?

I think because the budget was only defeated with the support of the BQ, I think the vote of no-confidence lacks legitimacy with most Canadians. The truth is most federalist MPs supported the budget, so we will not be dissolving Parliament and calling an election.

Personally, I think Harper is being extremely hypocritical here. Had he not aligned himself with the Bloc to defeat the government last month he might have had a valid point, but he is in no position to claim any moral superiority over the Liberals and NDP for voting on an issue along with the BQ when he did just that in May.

As an aside, though, I do take issue with the concept of former-BQ MPs receiving generous federal pension for all their years of loyal service trying to break up the country. Unfortunately, there's little that can be done about it, as they are the elected federal representatives for their ridings whether those of us in the Rest of Canada like it or not.

[Reaper]

First, I do think Harper is trying to have it both ways. He condones his party working with the BQ in trying to defeat the budget as legitimate but calls the BQ working with other parties to pass same sex marriage legislation illegitimate? It just sounds like he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. Either coalitions in parliament are legitimate or they aren't. It's not case specific.

Second, as long as BQ representatives are elected as MP's then they will (and should) be eligible to receive the MP pension. It goes with the position of MP regardless of their political agenda. I'm not keen on any party seeking to break up confederation but as long as they get elected then they should receive the same rights and benefits as any other MP.

[Resolute 14]

Harper is incorrect. The Bloq is as legitimate as the Liberals or Conservatives are, so their voice does count. Truthfully, I have no idea what Harper thinks such an argument will accomplish, other than to completely eliminate any hope of electing an MP in Quebec.

That said, I also find it interesting that the Department of Propaganda (CBC) pounced on Harper opposing the Bloq now while siding with them on the Budget, trying to label him a hypocrite.

But, to the best of my knowledge, Harper hasnt slammed the Liberals for "getting in bed" with the seperatists. He's merely making a rather dumb argument against the legitimacy of this vote.

Though it is funny how the Liberals - and their media - are more than willing to play up the "siding with the seperatists" angle when it is the Conservatives who align with the Bloq on an issue, but arent willing to do the same when the Liberals and Bloq align on an issue.

Atcually, no, it isnt funny. It is typical and pathetic.

[kermitology]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Jun 28 2005, 10:23 AM


That said, I also find it interesting that the Department of Propaganda (CBC) pounced on Harper opposing the Bloq now while siding with them on the Budget, trying to label him a hypocrite.

Though it is funny how the Liberals - and their media - are more than willing to play up the "siding with the seperatists" angle when it is the Conservatives who align with the Bloq on an issue, but arent willing to do the same when the Liberals and Bloq align on an issue.

I don't get these comments.. I still don't see the CBC as a pawn of the Liberal machine that so many of you on this board see.

I listen to CBC Radio 1 from time to time and when Harper aligned with the BQ for the budget vote they made a big deal of it, I thought every news organization did. Now with Harper critisizing the Liberals and the BQ voting together it's a left wing CBC propganda machine that's harping on Harper?

Seems to me this is just a blinded view really..

On to the issue..

Harper's up shinguard creek here.. He's a fumbling leader who is turning himself inside and out to paint the Liberals in the worst light he can. He's critisizing the Liberals for doing something that he himself has done. Come on Harper, are you so desperate that you need to point and cry when you can't get your way? The Conservative need a leader who will actually lead, who will be a force and not fumble around with petty bullshinguard like Harper does, AND one who will kick that litte asshat Rob Anders to the curb so Calgary West has a MP who actually does his job and doesn't just suck the balls of the leader while crying about a dead ideology.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by kermitology+Jun 28 2005, 09:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kermitology @ Jun 28 2005, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@Jun 28 2005, 10:23 AM


That said, I also find it interesting that the Department of Propaganda (CBC) pounced on Harper opposing the Bloq now while siding with them on the Budget, trying to label him a hypocrite.

Though it is funny how the Liberals - and their media - are more than willing to play up the "siding with the seperatists" angle when it is the Conservatives who align with the Bloq on an issue, but arent willing to do the same when the Liberals and Bloq align on an issue.

I don't get these comments.. I still don't see the CBC as a pawn of the Liberal machine that so many of you on this board see.

I listen to CBC Radio 1 from time to time and when Harper aligned with the BQ for the budget vote they made a big deal of it, I thought every news organization did. Now with Harper critisizing the Liberals and the BQ voting together it's a left wing CBC propganda machine that's harping on Harper?

Seems to me this is just a blinded view really.. [/b][/quote]
So show me where the media is taking the Liberals to task for "getting in bed with the seperatists" to get this bill passed.

Show me where Belinda Stronach is finding it hard to remain in the Liberal Caucus because she cant work with a leader so willing to work with the Seperatists.

The complaint IS NOT that they are getting on Harpers case. Harper's comments were stupid and should be criticized. The complaint is that they are not willing to treat the Liberals the same as they did the Conservatives for the exact same situation.

[Hakan]

"The conservatives never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Hah, I read that in the paper the other day.

[kermitology]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Jun 28 2005, 10:42 AM
So show me where the media is taking the Liberals to task for "getting in bed with the seperatists" to get this bill passed.

Show me where Belinda Stronach is finding it hard to remain in the Liberal Caucus because she cant work with a leader so willing to work with the Seperatists.

The complaint IS NOT that they are getting on Harpers case. Harper's comments were stupid and should be criticized. The complaint is that they are not willing to treat the Liberals the same as they did the Conservatives for the exact same situation.

Then why don't your complaints go out to all the other news organizations in Canada? Everyone made a big deal of Stronach crossing the floor, and the comments SHE made about Harper aligning with the BQ.

So it's not JUST the CBC that you should be complaining about.. Just because the CBC isn't making as big a deal of things as the previous case doesn't mean that they're a pawn of the Liberals.. That is unless the Liberals control all media in the country.. sure.

[MarchHare]

So show me where the media is taking the Liberals to task for "getting in bed with the seperatists" to get this bill passed.

Show me where Belinda Stronach is finding it hard to remain in the Liberal Caucus because she cant work with a leader so willing to work with the Seperatists.

The complaint IS NOT that they are getting on Harpers case. Harper's comments were stupid and should be criticized. The complaint is that they are not willing to treat the Liberals the same as they did the Conservatives for the exact same situation.

In the case of the budget vote, did the CBC itself editorialize and complain that the CPC was allying themselves with the separatists, or were they just reporting what other politicians said?

Can you please provide a link to a CBC story that shows such a bias? Or is the best you can do is find a link where the CBC quoted a politician blasting Harper for getting in bed with the Bloc?

Frankly, I don't see the bias either. Last month they quoted Stronach and others complaining about the CPC-BQ alliance. This month they're quoting Harper and MacKay making the same complaints.

[Resolute 14]

I just found the amount of time given in the story to allow Liberal MPs to attack Harper for apparently being a hypocrite rather interesting. I dont recall stories about Harpers supposed deal with the Bloq offering nearly as much space for the Conservatives - and especially the Bloq - to offer a rebuttal. I would suggest that there is a considerable amount of editorializing occuring within CBC's news stories themselves on how they are layed out.

[kermitology]

CBC's online article..

Click Here To Read

Now, I looked at that, and the CBC has quotes from two Liberal's, three Conservatives, two BQ members and Jack Layton (are there any other NDPers?)

All in all I found that the CBC had quotes from all parties, representing most sides of the debate here, so I still don't see this bias.

So I have to disagree with you Snakeeye

[octothorp]

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that the Conservatives had only 9 percent of the popular vote in Quebec. It's very similar to rhetoric by the Liberals in regards to Alberta. Dismissing regionalist political movements and parties only lends strength to those movements--you would think that the Liberals and Conservatives would both have learned that by now. However, it doesn't change the fact that this was an extremely hypocritical thing for Harper to say, and the appearances of it are very bad. It's an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that the only reason that this bill is passing is because the conservatives got outsmarted on C-48. Does the budget bill lack legitimacy because Harper (or the brains behind him) were asleep at the wheel? The conservatives are a mess right now, plain and simple, and they better hope there's no election coming up any time soon, because they're likely to get destroyed.

[moon]

Originally posted by octothorp@Jun 28 2005, 10:32 AM
With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that the Conservatives had only 9 percent of the popular vote in Quebec. It's very similar to rhetoric by the Liberals in regards to Alberta. Dismissing regionalist political movements and parties only lends strength to those movements--you would think that the Liberals and Conservatives would both have learned that by now. However, it doesn't change the fact that this was an extremely hypocritical thing for Harper to say, and the appearances of it are very bad. It's an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that the only reason that this bill is passing is because the conservatives got outsmarted on C-48. Does the budget bill lack legitimacy because Harper (or the brains behind him) were asleep at the wheel? The conservatives are a mess right now, plain and simple, and they better hope there's no election coming up any time soon, because they're likely to get destroyed.

Destroyed???

I don't think so. They still will get most of the votes in Alberta and bunch of seats in Saskatchewan and BC and seats in Ontario. Don't see how they will be destroyed especially since the Liberals haven't been lighting the country on fire with their actions lately.

I missed alot of the coverage earlier as I was down int he states but if the CBC was actaully impartial and not biased towards the Liberals it would have to be the first time in history that has happened. The CBC bias is so apparent that I would be surprised if they some how were able to but it aside for more then 5 minutes.

[Cube Inmate]

Bearing in mind that Harper appears to be an idiot, there is a minor valid point in what he said, if only for the following reason:

-Gay marriage is already legal in Quebec cuz the judges said so
-The BQ only looks out for Quebec's interests
-How does it advance their interests to vote for this?

They've got a right to do it, sure, but they're not doing it out of a desire to promote "equal rights." Then again, I don't really know their official social policies because the arrogant ******* won't post their website in English.

[Bingo]

The whole damn mess is hypocritical and frankly quite sad (I'm sure this has been said, I read the first post and jumped to answer).

Harper is a twit for suggesting a partnership with the Bloq is getting in bed with separatists after using that same alliance to try and take the government in May. How short do you think our memories are amigo?

Meanwhile Layton and Martin are twits for forging an alliance with the Bloq after suggesting again and again that the Conservatives are working with separatists.

Canadian politics are in some sad shape.

People should be called on this stuff ... but clearly that isn't happening. Nothing sticks.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 28 2005, 12:02 PM
Destroyed???

I don't think so. They still will get most of the votes in Alberta and bunch of seats in Saskatchewan and BC and seats in Ontario. Don't see how they will be destroyed especially since the Liberals haven't been lighting the country on fire with their actions lately.

They would still get lots of support in western Canada but the aren't going to gain any support anywhere else after the display they've put on.

They've lost ground for sure in eastern Canada. I don't know how we are defining "destroyed" but if they can't make any progress/can lose ground over there then they will lose badly.

The Liberals haven't been lighting the country on fire but the Conservatives have been lighting themselves on fire.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Jun 28 2005, 11:31 AM
Bearing in mind that Harper appears to be an idiot, there is a minor valid point in what he said, if only for the following reason:

-Gay marriage is already legal in Quebec cuz the judges said so
-The BQ only looks out for Quebec's interests
-How does it advance their interests to vote for this?

They've got a right to do it, sure, but they're not doing it out of a desire to promote "equal rights." Then again, I don't really know their official social policies because the arrogant ******* won't post their website in English.

That's a good point. This basically makes the BQ's vote, a vote to spread to Canada what Quebec already has. Why should they have a say?

The problem that I have, is that a party that wants nothing to do with the rest of Canada, can exist in a national government.
It can be argued that the other parties only look out for certain regions as well, but the BQ does this officailly and without denial. I don't like the idea that a party representing a single province can run in federal elections.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Jun 28 2005, 12:50 PM
The problem that I have, is that a party that wants nothing to do with the rest of Canada, can exist in a national government.
It can be argued that the other parties only look out for certain regions as well, but the BQ does this officailly and without denial. I don't like the idea that a party representing a single province can run in federal elections.

The citizens of Quebec, who are still Canadian, have the right to send representatives to Ottawa who will represent their interests. If that's an interest that has no traction outside Quebec, well, so be it.

[MarchHare]

That's a good point. This basically makes the BQ's vote, a vote to spread to Canada what Quebec already has. Why should they have a say?

Should MPs from the other seven provinces where gay marriage is already legal not be allowed to vote on C-38 either?

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 28 2005, 11:02 AM

I don't think so. They still will get most of the votes in Alberta and bunch of seats in Saskatchewan and BC and seats in Ontario.

I've heard that Ontario is quickly losing interest with the Conservatives and don't count on BC. The recent Provincial election is proof enough we're not too fond of the right wingers anymore. I can see BC becoming federally NDP again soon, aswell as provincially.

[FlamesAddiction]

I personally think Harper is wrong, but I don't think it's necessary to bring up every little thing a politician does and make mountains out of mole hills.