First Aid in the Workplace

[WhiteTiger]

Today during lunch, a conversation sprung up that got me wondering. I was sitting there reading, and one of my departmental co-workers started to fake-choke in response to something he saw on the tv. A lead hand, a supervisor and the HR rep were there, and the HR rep said in a joking manner that since I was first aid trained, I should handle this situation.

Since he clearly was not choking, I trotted out a stock snide answer; I told her "I have the ability to help, not the obligation."

The LH, the Supervisor and the HR rep all jumped in with how, since I was first aid trained, I actually DID have an obligation to help (And it's not like I wouldn't have, if he'd actually been choking or in need of some manner of first aid, of course). I debated it a bit, but the three remained adamant that I could be legally forced to administer any first aid within my capability.

Now, where I think the issue might be is that it's a workplace thing. Out in the 'real world', a person can't be legally forced to provide first aid (I can't see any way that could be enforceable). But...does that change when your company provides first aid training to you? If your company has trained you in first aid, do they then have a right and a legal means to 'force' someone to help? I can't imagine this coming up, as most people would want to help, if they were capable (I assume).

I tried to googlefu the answer, and the AHSA doesn't have the information I'm looking for. Has something like this ever happened? Where someone, after being trained by their workplace, could watch a co-worker just suffer? I suppose that one could freeze or have all their training go out of their head (I re-read my training book every 6 months, to 'keep it fresh', as it were).

I guess the question comes down to, in the end, if someone could actually just stand there, knowing they could (have) helped, and not...is there any legal recourse by either the company or the injured coworker (or, if the worst happens, their next-of-kin) that could be taken?

[Jacks]

Not sure why you would sit by while someone was actually choking?

What a strange question.

In Quebec you are obligated by law to help, don't think that applies to the rest of Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

[J epworth]

I would say that there would more likely be legal recourse from the coworker to the company. Canada Occupational Health and Safety regulations require that workers be trained in first aid. Be that one worker per unit or the entire staff is up to the companies policies. However, I could see that if the person trained in first aid refused to help, the company could be sued for not having someone properly trained.

It's a tricky situation you bring up though. I would think if you have in your work contract that you have to be trained in first aid, then actually get trained and refuse to help in a first aid situation, you could be sued for negligence. If however you are just a worker who is trained in first aid, but it isn't a requirement of your job position, you wouldn't be liable if you refused.

[J epworth]

These are the regulations for first aid in the workplace:

"First Aid Attendants

16.3 (1) At every workplace at which six or more employees are working at any time, the employer shall ensure that there is a first aid attendant.

(2) At every remote workplace at which two or more employees are working at any time, the employer shall ensure that there is a first aid attendant.

(3) At every workplace at which an employee is working on live high voltage electrical equipment, the employer shall ensure that
(a) a first aid attendant is readily available; or
(b) at least one of the employees has the training necessary to provide resuscitation by mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, cardiopulmonary resuscitation or an equivalent direct method.

(4) At every workplace that is required to have a first aid attendant, the employer shall ensure that the first aid attendant at the workplace is qualified by having at least
(a) if the workplace is an office workplace for which the ambulance response time is
(i) up to two hours, a basic first aid certificate, or
(ii) more than two hours, a standard first aid certificate;
(b) if the workplace is any other workplace, other than a workplace in a wilderness area, and the ambulance response time for the workplace is
(i) less than twenty minutes, a basic first aid certificate, or
(ii) twenty minutes or more but not more than two hours, a standard first aid certificate; and
(c) if the workplace is in a wilderness area, a standard first aid certificate and wilderness first aid training that is specially designed to meet the first aid needs of persons who work, live or travel in such an area."

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...-86.html#h-247

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Not sure why you would sit by while someone was actually choking?

What a strange question.

In Quebec you are obligated by law to help, don't think that applies to the rest of Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

I wouldn't just sit by when someone was choking if I could help them (and I can). I was more curious about the other three folk's statements that I was actually legally obligated to help since I knew what to do. I would think a law like that would be hard to pass and even harder to enforce. I would, of course, hope that such a law not be needed in the first place. But it was an interesting question to me.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Not sure why you would sit by while someone was actually choking?

What a strange question.

In Quebec you are obligated by law to help, don't think that applies to the rest of Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

Your answer is valid for a good samaritan situation, in which you have no duty of care, such as if you ran into a stranger who needed help.

I'm not entirely sure how this extends to the workplace, although according to Occupational Health and Safety FAQs

What responsibilities are assigned to workers?

OHS Act, Section 2(2) states general duty: Every worker shall, while engaged in an occupation,

(a) take reasonable care to protect the health and safety of the worker and other workers
(b) cooperate with the employer for the purposes of protecting the health and safety of

(i) the worker
(ii) other workers of the employer
(iii) other workers (not employed by employer but present)

There are also specific worker responsibilities in the Act, Regulation, and Code.

http://amhsa.net/pages/FAQs/leg.aspx

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Your answer is valid for a good samaritan situation, in which you have no duty of care, such as if you ran into a stranger who needed help.

I don't see why it would matter if the person is a stranger or not. If you have a "duty of care" you should be even more obligated to help. Doesn't matter anyway since that law only applies in Quebec from what I can tell.

[Rathji]

I received my Standard First Aid with CPR C a little over a year ago and was told that I did not have an obligation to help but if I decided to help, I had an obligation to continue to help until I was physically unable to do so any further.

If you decide to not help; maybe you are not comfortable in the situation touching the victim (you do not have gloves and he's covered in puke/blood) you have the minimal duty of care which would require you to at least call for help/911. You could also tell the victim how to self-administer an abdominal thrust.
Unless it's your job to administer first aid (lifeguard, nurse...) you're covered under the good samaritains act to do the above.

[Hockeyguy15]

Work provided me and a bunch of other people with our first aid level C CPR and AED training, we were told that if a situation arises in the work place we are legally obligated to help.

Out in the real world you can choose if you want to help, there is no legal obligation.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I received my Standard First Aid with CPR C a little over a year ago and was told that I did not have an obligation to help but if I decided to help, I had an obligation to continue to help until I was physically unable to do so any further.

Same, and I just did the course six weeks ago. You only become obligated once you choose to act.

[Buff]

If the person in need refuses help then you are obligated to honor their wishes.

[Locke]

I remember when I took a First Aid course last year I asked my instructor about out of country first aid, for instance, I'm first aid trained, what if I was in the US and saw someone that needed first aid?

He told me to call 911, look the other way and keep walking. Even if you save their life some of them can and will still sue you for everything.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I don't see why it would matter if the person is a stranger or not. If you have a "duty of care" you should be even more obligated to help. Doesn't matter anyway since that law only applies in Quebec from what I can tell.

The "duty of care" piece is why it matters if they are a stranger. You do not have a duty of care to a stranger, other than in Quebec and some other countries. You might have a duty of care to a non-stranger, depending on your relationship to them. If you do not have duty of care, then you are not legally required to start first aid. If you do, then you are.

I still haven't seen anything concrete as far as the workplace goes, but I suspect that if you are classified as a "first aid attendant" via J epworth Kendal's quote, you probably are considered to have a duty to care while at work.

Morally, it should not matter at all, imo. If you have the ability to help, you should. Just taking a curious look at where this sits legally.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Locke

I remember when I took a First Aid course last year I asked my instructor about out of country first aid, for instance, I'm first aid trained, what if I was in the US and saw someone that needed first aid?

He told me to call 911, look the other way and keep walking. Even if you save their life some of them can and will still sue you for everything.

Your instructor probably shouldn't be saying such things. They clearly haven't bothered to actually find out the truth. What it comes down to is what the Good Samaritan Law is in the place that you are in. This varies in the US by state.

In Minnesota, for example

(a) A person who, without compensation or the expectation of
compensation, renders emergency care, advice, or assistance at the scene of
an emergency or during transit to a location where professional medical care
can be rendered, is not liable for any civil damages as a result of acts or
omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care, advice, or
assistance, unless the person acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner
in providing the care, advice, or assistance. This subdivision does not apply
to a person rendering emergency care, advice, or assistance during the
course of regular employment, and receiving compensation or expecting to
receive compensation for rendering the care, advice, or assistance.

http://www.heartsafeam.com/files/Min...aritan_Act.pdf

This link has each individual US state's Good Samaritan Law: http://www.heartsafeam.com/pages/faq_good_samaritan

This is pretty much the way the various Good Samaritan Acts work in most provinces in Canada. If you are acting as a Good Samaritan (out of the kindness of your heart - aka no duty of care), you are protected from liability, unless you do something really, really stupid ("acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance")

In places that don't have a specific Good Samaritan Law/Act/etc, it is governed under common law. Long story short, you are protected in most places, but would do well to know the law of the particular place you are in. Where you are more likely to run into trouble is if you do what your instructor suggested and run away in places (such as Quebec) where you are considered to have a legal obligation to help.

Having a first aid instructor say something like that really bothers me, because it falsely encourages the fear of litigation that prevents people from helping each other out. Sure, there are some people out there who may try to sue you for trying to help them if it doesn't work out perfectly, but the fact of the matter is that they will lose their case almost anywhere they try it.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Your instructor probably shouldn't be saying such things. They clearly haven't bothered to actually find out the truth. What it comes down to is what the Good Samaritan Law is in the place that you are in. This varies in the US by state.

In Minnesota, for example



http://www.heartsafeam.com/files/Min...aritan_Act.pdf

This link has each individual US state's Good Samaritan Law: http://www.heartsafeam.com/pages/faq_good_samaritan

This is pretty much the way the various Good Samaritan Acts work in most provinces in Canada. If you are acting as a Good Samaritan (out of the kindness of your heart - aka no duty of care), you are protected from liability, unless you do something really, really stupid ("acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance")

In places that don't have a specific Good Samaritan Law/Act/etc, it is governed under common law. Long story short, you are protected in most places, but would do well to know the law of the particular place you are in. Where you are more likely to run into trouble is if you do what your instructor suggested and run away in places (such as Quebec) where you are considered to have a legal obligation to help.

Having a first aid instructor say something like that really bothers me, because it falsely encourages the fear of litigation that prevents people from helping each other out. Sure, there are some people out there who may try to sue you for trying to help them if it doesn't work out perfectly, but the fact of the matter is that they will lose their case almost anywhere they try it.

My instructor was referring to the law in Alberta when she said that, a distinction that I didn't think needed to be made in my post. There were certainly instructions related to the Good Samaritan type laws in other places, which I could have mentioned as well, but it had been covered in the thread which was posted by someone I assume is in Calgary.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Rathji

My instructor was referring to the law in Alberta when she said that, a distinction that I didn't think needed to be made in my post. There were certainly instructions related to the Good Samaritan type laws in other places, which I could have mentioned as well, but it had been covered in the thread which was posted by someone I assume is in Calgary.

I was not replying to your post. Look at the one I quoted by Locke. Your instructor was absolutely right.

[Rathji]

My mistake Tapatalk sometimes makes me slim the quoted part.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by Buff

If the person in need refuses help then you are obligated to honor their wishes.

Until they go unconcious, then you can help without their consent.

People get all up in arms if I don't help somebody at work. Whiners.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Morally, it should not matter at all, imo. If you have the ability to help, you should. Just taking a curious look at where this sits legally.

This was more my thought on it, too. It was the whole "workplace" bit that made me wonder about it.

See, my workplace ensures that all salary staff, all lead hands, and 10 or so additional hourly workers per shift are first aid trained. My instructor had mentioned the "ability, not obligation" bit in class, as one of the hourly folks was being particularly obstinate about the training (His gripe was that he felt he should not be forced to be responsible for someone else, regardless of the situation). So I worked off the trainer's assertion.

But then the lunch episode occurred, and it got me wondering if, because they have provided you with training specifically for workplace safety, the company has a right or the ability (or legal recourse) to expect a worker so trained to actually help out if need arises. I could find no actual laws on the matter, and the best I could come up with is that it would be a pretty murky grey area if it went to trial, so figured I'd put it to the CP Braintrust.