Calgary Cops Kill Dog

[Resolute 14]

It seems like overkill because a man who did not see what happend said it was overkill?

We have no idea what happened, there is no possible way to pass judgement one way or the other.

[Frank the Tank]

I can think of better ways to subdue a dog besides pumping 2 bullets into it. Poor doggy. Poor owner. Can't imagine coming outside to that scene. I'd lose it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Jun 9 2005, 02:22 PM
It seems like overkill because a man who did not see what happend said it was overkill?

We have no idea what happened, there is no possible way to pass judgement one way or the other.

It seems like overkill because it seems unlikely that the dog was doing something that could only be solved or fixed by killing it. Not impossible, but unlikely.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by Frank the Tank@Jun 9 2005, 08:45 AM
I can think of better ways to subdue a dog besides pumping 2 bullets into it. Poor doggy. Poor owner. Can't imagine coming outside to that scene. I'd lose it.

To be fair, the second shot was to put the dog down to end its suffering.

I feel very sorry for the dog, the owner and the officers involved. I can't imagine that it would be a favourable experience for any involved.

Giving the officer who shot the dog the benefit of the doubt I think it is easy to see how the situation could have resulted.

The officers arrive at the scene of a domestic disturbance (a potentially hostile situation to begin with) and asked the owner to secure the dog in another room before they talked to him regarding the situation. The officer who remained outside the home probably had every reason to believe that the dog had been secured as per their instructions. The emergence of the dog could certainly have been viewed as a potentially hostile action.

German shepherds are known to be used for attack dogs thus there was probably an heightened awareness of the damage that could have been inflicted by it. It is very possible that the dog ran at the officer in an excited manner (like the kind animals use to greet new visitors who have obviously come to see them... why else would people be there?) and it was misinterpreted as aggression.

While it is very easy to blame the police for the death of the dog (when pets are involved people often need someone to blame) the officer who made the initial shot most likely thought he was protecting himself.

While there was certainly an error in judgement if the dog had been hostile what was he supposed to do? Let the dog attack him?

Don't get me wrong, I feel sad about the incident and if the investigation rules that the officer was in the wrong then I want him to be punished for it.

It just makes me uneasy when incidents like this happen and everyone starts painting the police like stormtrooping, heartless gestapo (not saying that you have done this).

[JiriHrdina]

I'm an animal lover but the bottom line is if a big dog like this is coming at me with what I perceive to be a threatening manner, and I have a gun in my hand - I probably shoot it. I'm not sure what the other options are that some are referring too. Given the seocnds the officer had, what options did he have (realizing its difficult to determine this not knowing the details of the situation)

[Incinerator]

Agreed with Reaper, if I was the cop in the situation described I'd do the same thing, I'm sure if it was a Pommerainian it wouldn't have ended the same way.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Jun 9 2005, 08:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Jun 9 2005, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@Jun 9 2005, 02:22 PM
It seems like overkill because a man who did not see what happend said it was overkill?

We have no idea what happened, there is no possible way to pass judgement one way or the other.

It seems like overkill because it seems unlikely that the dog was doing something that could only be solved or fixed by killing it. Not impossible, but unlikely. [/b][/quote]
There was a kid in the states a couple weeks ago who apparently led a happy life, was about to graduate, then up and killed his family and then himself.

It was unlikely, but it happened.

While I suppose I fit into the "copcarteblanche" crowd that Fotze mentions, I would suggest that you are arguing against the cops because they are cops, not because you have any knowledge of the facts surrounding this incident.

Innocent until proven guilty might just be the greatest myth in today's society.

[browna]

All depends on the timeline of how long this took, but I think its overkill.

a)It doesn't sound like this was more then a couple minutes if that, since the dog got out, no sounds of a struggle

b)It seemed to be still in the owners yard within ear shot of the owner...

c)There are strangers that let the dog out, which I am sure excited it, and maybe caused the dog to jump up

If it was only a matter of a minute, and it was only in the yard, the cop that fired the shots could've a)told the owner to restrian the dog
b)ran inside where the owner could handle his dog better

Since this wasn't a call about the dog, the police should've used a little more discretion then firing away.

Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have to use it in a case like this....not trying to get into "cops have a big ego" debate, but by running back into the house when a dog takes a jump at you, doesn't make you a *$#@!...especially if the only alternative (in your mind) is to pull out your gun and shoot it.

Given the fact that this happened so quickly, and within earshot of the owner, makes me believe that there were other options.

Other then the already mentioned alerting of the other cops/owner to restrian the dog so quickly, or running inside, where was the billy club to bonk it across the nose (and then going into the house to alert the owner)? Firing that gun into the air would've scared pup shinguardless too.

Some cops go 20 year without firing guns, this guy seems a little trigger happy, and its too bad for the owner and the pup.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Jun 9 2005, 04:29 PM
I'm an animal lover but the bottom line is if a big dog like this is coming at me with what I perceive to be a threatening manner, and I have a gun in my hand - I probably shoot it. I'm not sure what the other options are that some are referring too. Given the seocnds the officer had, what options did he have (realizing its difficult to determine this not knowing the details of the situation)

I'm a dog lover but I've also been chased by a determined German Shephard!!!

So I can see both points of view.

If the dog was standing off and barking furiously then the people suggesting the officer had time to review alternatives might be right.

If it simply charged the officer then he had about five seconds to think about what to do.

Having said all that, however, from the witness account, the officer shot the dog from a distance then walked over and put the dog down and if that's the case, it implies the officer wasn't being charged and therefore he should be condemned.

If that witness account is accurate.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

[moon]

I agree with Cowperson.

If I was being charged by a German Sheppard and thought it was going to attack I would probably doing everything, including shooting it, to stop it. However, if the dog was not charging and not providing an imediate threat then the officer should be punished to the full extent possible.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by fotze+Jun 9 2005, 11:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fotze @ Jun 9 2005, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@Jun 9 2005, 12:15 PM
Innocent until proven guilty might just be the greatest myth in today's society.

Especially as practiced by some police. [/b][/quote]
Who really knows what happened in this case though. I know that there are some bad police officers, but as I am sure most people know I give the benifit of the doubt to the officers, especially since there are no witnesses, and I think most people would do the same if they felt a dog was going to attack them. Cow you have experience with German Sheppards, and know the type of dogs that they are, is it not possible that this cop would have a different perception towards what occured, if it occured the way in which the writer of this story said that it did.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by browna@Jun 9 2005, 12:23 PM
All depends on the timeline of how long this took, but I think its overkill.

a)It doesn't sound like this was more then a couple minutes if that, since the dog got out, no sounds of a struggle

b)It seemed to be still in the owners yard within ear shot of the owner...

c)There are strangers that let the dog out, which I am sure excited it, and maybe caused the dog to jump up

If it was only a matter of a minute, and it was only in the yard, the cop that fired the shots could've a)told the owner to restrian the dog
b)ran inside where the owner could handle his dog better

Since this wasn't a call about the dog, the police should've used a little more discretion then firing away.

Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have to use it in a case like this....not trying to get into "cops have a big ego" debate, but by running back into the house when a dog takes a jump at you, doesn't make you a *$#@!...especially if the only alternative (in your mind) is to pull out your gun and shoot it.

Given the fact that this happened so quickly, and within earshot of the owner, makes me believe that there were other options.

Other then the already mentioned alerting of the other cops/owner to restrian the dog so quickly, or running inside, where was the billy club to bonk it across the nose (and then going into the house to alert the owner)? Firing that gun into the air would've scared pup shinguardless too.

Some cops go 20 year without firing guns, this guy seems a little trigger happy, and its too bad for the owner and the pup.

I don't know man, if a dog is running right at me, I don't think I'd have the time to logically look at all of my options. If the dog is being agressive and lunging at me (not saying this is what happened) I'm probalby not gonna have the time to think, "hey, I should run into the house". Especially if a cop is trained to act quickly, if he precieves a threat to himself he's gonna defend himself. Maybe pepper spary would have been a better option, but maybe he didn't have any.

And as for firing the gun in the air, I see two problems.
1) Firing into the air in a residential neighborhood is incredibly dangerous
2) I know a lot of dogs that either couldn't care less or get even more excited when the hear a gun go off, granted these are hunting dogs, and not german shepards, but there's no guarantee that the dog would be scared off.

Fact of the matter is, none of us know the exact circumstances, so it's all conjecture. The cop may have been genuinely threatened, or he may be a trigger happy jerk. none of us really know for sure.

[Table 5]

Originally posted by Incinerator@Jun 9 2005, 11:31 AM
I'm sure if it was a Pommerainian it wouldn't have ended the same way.

a double tragedy indeed.

[dustygoon]

Disgusting. The problem I see is that I would probably have flipped out seeing the dog shot.

Does anyone know what recourse a pet owner has against a cop who killed his pet?

[moon]

Originally posted by dustygoon@Jun 9 2005, 12:31 PM
Disgusting. The problem I see is that I would probably have flipped out seeing the dog shot.

Does anyone know what recourse a pet owner has against a cop who killed his pet?

Probably none if the dog was aggressive and/or attacking him.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Jun 9 2005, 07:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Jun 9 2005, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Especially as practiced by some police.

Who really knows what happened in this case though. I know that there are some bad police officers, but as I am sure most people know I give the benifit of the doubt to the officers, especially since there are no witnesses, and I think most people would do the same if they felt a dog was going to attack them. Cow you have experience with German Sheppards, and know the type of dogs that they are, is it not possible that this cop would have a different perception towards what occured, if it occured the way in which the writer of this story said that it did. [/b][/quote]
I said I have experience being chased by a German Shephard . . . . . as a kid on Halloween Night as a matter of fact!!!

But I've never owned a German Shephard.

The words of the witness:

Lawrence Johnson was nearby when the shooting occurred.

"I heard a shot and hit the deck," the 60-year-old school bus driver said.

"I saw an officer in short sleeves go up to the motionless dog.

"The officer stood over the dog and gave it a second shot, and killed it."

The witness didn't see what preceded the first shot.

The witness does say, however, that the officer had to walk up to the dog after the first shot, which may imply the officer was some reasonable distance away from the dog when he fired the first bullet.

Other than that account . . . . its hard to say what happened.

Cowperson

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by browna@Jun 9 2005, 06:23 PM
All depends on the timeline of how long this took, but I think its overkill.

a)It doesn't sound like this was more then a couple minutes if that, since the dog got out, no sounds of a struggle

b)It seemed to be still in the owners yard within ear shot of the owner...

c)There are strangers that let the dog out, which I am sure excited it, and maybe caused the dog to jump up

If it was only a matter of a minute, and it was only in the yard, the cop that fired the shots could've a)told the owner to restrian the dog
b)ran inside where the owner could handle his dog better

Since this wasn't a call about the dog, the police should've used a little more discretion then firing away.

Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have to use it in a case like this....not trying to get into "cops have a big ego" debate, but by running back into the house when a dog takes a jump at you, doesn't make you a *$#@!...especially if the only alternative (in your mind) is to pull out your gun and shoot it.

Given the fact that this happened so quickly, and within earshot of the owner, makes me believe that there were other options.

Other then the already mentioned alerting of the other cops/owner to restrian the dog so quickly, or running inside, where was the billy club to bonk it across the nose (and then going into the house to alert the owner)? Firing that gun into the air would've scared pup shinguardless too.

Some cops go 20 year without firing guns, this guy seems a little trigger happy, and its too bad for the owner and the pup.

Well let me paint a different scenario for you:

The cops goes in and talk to the guy, tells the guy to keep the dog restrained, then the shooting cop goes back out while the other cop talks to the guy. The shooting cop is assuming that the dog is safely restrained. All of a sudden the dog jumps out the door and may or may not have barked in an overly-excited manner. Right now if I'm the cop the first thing that goes thru my mind is:

"oh shinguard, isnt this dog supposed to be inside? what happened in there? Is my partner alright?"

Now while all this goes thru my head in that split second, the dog leaps at me, natural reflex makes me pull out the only self-defence weapon I have and I fire one shot, the dog is down but not out, to put it out of suffering another shot is needed...

There's always two sides to any stories, some people pick one side and some pick the other...The truth will likely never be known in this case.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Jun 9 2005, 06:15 PM
While I suppose I fit into the "copcarteblanche" crowd that Fotze mentions, I would suggest that you are arguing against the cops because they are cops, not because you have any knowledge of the facts surrounding this incident.

No but thanks for assuming what I was thinking.

What I was actually thinking is that shooting a gun should be a last resort even if it is only at an animal and not a human.

And as I said, it's hard for me to imagine that this was a situation where all other options had been exhausted. But I did acknowledge that it might have been that kind of situation.

That said, if a cop is trained to shoot by reflex, it's hard to blame him for acting on reflex. If we train people to use deadly weapons when confronted, that's what they'll do. But if his life was not in danger, I don't think shooting the dog was justified. Even if he has to take a bite from the animal before they can get it subdued, I would think that would be preferable.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Incinerator@Jun 9 2005, 02:03 PM
"oh shinguard, isnt this dog supposed to be inside? what happened in there? Is my partner alright?"

Now while all this goes thru my head in that split second, the dog leaps at me, natural reflex makes me pull out the only self-defence weapon I have and I fire one shot, the dog is down but not out, to put it out of suffering another shot is needed...

I had no idea we had ninjas on the police force here in Calgary.

Anywho... pretty crappy story. I doubt a cop (a normal one) would just shoot a dog if he didn't feel it was a threat to him. I guess it comes down to what you percieve as a threat because some people react quite differently to dogs. I"m pretty sure I'd have a different reaction to a large dog than say fotze or Cowperson would.