A sad day for Canada

[HOZ]

I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Quite honestly it is time for Alberta to seek a looser form of Federation from this Banana republic. This government is illegitimate and corrupt. The fact that 153 people in Parliament voted for criminals and corruption makes me sick. The fact that there is a whole plethra (a virtual majority) of people willing to shrug their shoulders and forgive the Liberanos for their crimes before the pay forthem makes me ashamed that I am a Canuck.

Yes, yes I am sure the flames of," move if you hate so much"; "we have it so good you should be thankful", "Look at all the wonderful things we have (past tense) done", etc... are all about to fly.

Well I just have higher expectations of what it means to be Canadian and what Canada should do (or be able to do). It shames me that Canada and Canadians as a whole would excuse this government for what it has done.

I use to think we were for justice; for just laws; for human rights; for freedom, not against it; for freedom of expression and not PC-KGB like "be nice or else!"; for tolerance, but not tolerating the intolerable!;

Now Canadian values are smoking dope, gay marriage, and get ahead and damn whatever; "Its not what you have done it is what PC comment you can make that matters"-ism, selfishness and mediocracy.


The Quebecers (I will no longer call them separatists) have it right. This government will not represent us, or care about us, or consider us worthy Canadians. Therefore it is time to start building our walls.

Strong walls make for good neighbours. Time for a looser federation.

[HOZ]

Well here is a reason to be a proud Bananadian!!!

We have our own Barbie!!!! Wh000 HOOOOO!!!

Turncoat Barbie!!

[fokakya]

Originally posted by HOZ@May 20 2005, 11:29 PM
I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Quite honestly it is time for Alberta to seek a looser form of Federation from this Banana republic. This government is illegitimate and corrupt. The fact that 153 people in Parliament voted for criminals and corruption makes me sick. The fact that there is a whole plethra (a virtual majority) of people willing to shrug their shoulders and forgive the Liberanos for their crimes before the pay forthem makes me ashamed that I am a Canuck.

It's funny to me how people make such generalized comments about the Liberal government. The Liberal Party is not corrupt. Some of the PEOPLE who were part of the party a DECADE ago were corrupt (and yes, some of them still work for the party). Those PEOPLE deserve some form of punishment and I would not forgive those people without some sort of retribution. However, a political party cannot really pay for the crimes of individuals. The party is an abstract notion, there to represent values and belief systems. It is not an entity to be considered human in instelf.

I'm sure you'll just pass this part off as a flame but... the fact that anyone would actually say the words "I am ashamed to be a Canadian" is disgusting to me for precisely the reasons that you put in your "I'm sure I'll be flamed" disclaimer. Regardless of some of the shortfalls of our governmental system I will always be proud to be a Canadian. That is, unless or until (if extreme right-wingers have their way) Canada adopts an American-style militaristic outlook on the world and starts invading other countries with no lawful reason. Then I would actually be ashamed to be a Canadian.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by fokakya+May 21 2005, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fokakya @ May 21 2005, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@May 20 2005, 11:29 PM
I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Quite honestly it is time for Alberta to seek a looser form of Federation from this Banana republic. This government is illegitimate and corrupt. The fact that 153 people in Parliament voted for criminals and corruption makes me sick. The fact that there is a whole plethra (a virtual majority) of people willing to shrug their shoulders and forgive the Liberanos for their crimes before the pay forthem makes me ashamed that I am a Canuck.

It's funny to me how people make such generalized comments about the Liberal government. The Liberal Party is not corrupt. Some of the PEOPLE who were part of the party a DECADE ago were corrupt (and yes, some of them still work for the party). Those PEOPLE deserve some form of punishment and I would not forgive those people without some sort of retribution. However, a political party cannot really pay for the crimes of individuals. The party is an abstract notion, there to represent values and belief systems. It is not an entity to be considered human in instelf.

I'm sure you'll just pass this part off as a flame but... the fact that anyone would actually say the words "I am ashamed to be a Canadian" is disgusting to me for precisely the reasons that you put in your "I'm sure I'll be flamed" disclaimer. Regardless of some of the shortfalls of our governmental system I will always be proud to be a Canadian. That is, unless or until (if extreme right-wingers have their way) Canada adopts an American-style militaristic outlook on the world and starts invading other countries with no lawful reason. Then I would actually be ashamed to be a Canadian. [/b][/quote]
I'm not buying the argument that it was a few individuals, its too wide spread for it to be anything but the Liberal Party, and way to well planned.

I also look at the conduct of the last prime minister, the fact that our current prime minister is setting a great example by reflagging his ships to avoid taxation. The fact that he called an early election last year to avoid having Gomery taint his party during the vote. The fact that Gomery really has no teeth, and nothing is going to come up at the end to effect changes.

I also look at the wastage as corruption, the HR scandal, the gun registry and the office building issues, etc etc etc.

The Liberals are either corrupt, or incompetant, and to me that means that shouldn't be anywhere near the check book, until they totally come clean and clean house.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

But they got rid of Alfontzo Galiongi or however you spell that guys name.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by HOZ@May 21 2005, 06:34 AM
Well here is a reason to be a proud Bananadian!!!

We have our own Barbie!!!! Wh000 HOOOOO!!!

Turncoat Barbie!!

It will go well with our own little drama queen too - Not mentioning HOZ's name.

[Claeren]

I love how conservatives think government is corrupt and how it should never tax no matter what the cause and should never tell them who should own a gun but are SO quick to let it decide who should get married and who should smoke dope.


No wonder liberals still won't vote for them. At least make some sense, at least come up with a platform that the majority of people outside Taber (Or their kids living in the big city, ie Calgary) have an intererst in supporting and getting excited about. The majority of people in downtown TO, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, and even Calgary and Edmonton DON'T CARE about gay marriage, dope, or abortion. They care about not having the government tell them what to do even if it means losing 75c in tax money to corruption each year. Kind of ironic twist in the history on conservatism....


Claeren.

[Resolute 14]

Personally, I like my 75 cents, and every firewall we can put up to keep my money in my province, and to keep Ottawa out of my province is a good thing.

I would much rather my money went to paying the additional costs of protecting Alberta than went to some corrupt Liberal's pocket.

[Sylvanfan]

I don't know what it is these days, but there seems to be a lot of apathy towards politics at all levels, and not just in Canada. The last two elections in the US, were battles of which bland guy is going to be president, and Canada has been a nation of regional political domination for like 3 elections now. To be honest if there had been another federal election held due to the government falling, I would have voted Green, or not voted at all. I don't like any of the current major parties, and it's time for something new to stand up and grab my attention. I get the feeling that I'm not the only person who thinks this way.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by HOZ@May 21 2005, 03:29 AM
I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Damn democracy and everything it stands for! Alberta didn't get what it wanted, so it's wrong!



While I don't condone what some of the liberals did (to say ever single member of the party is currupt is a little out to lunch, that's like saying every Albertan is a right wing conservative) I must question why the vote went the way it did.

The Canadian people wanted a Liberal gov't even after the scandal broke.

The NDP wanted to put more money into socal programs, so the Liberals agreed to get their budget past. That's basically what politics is right there negotiation.

Harper lost Brison, then basically gave Cadman the boot, then lost Stronich.

Ever think maybe the probem is Harper? Time for a new leader? I've got nothing against the CPC, I honestly don't (I will be an ass and take shots like the one to start the post though, nothing better than shinguarddisturbing my man) but Stephen Harper isn't going to lead you to the glory land. You want to fix the problems with the federal gov't, start by fixing the problems in your party.

Harper is showing he can't hold a candle to Martin's political abilities, time to find someone who can.

That of course, is if you want the CPC to win a federal election, maybe you just want to bitch about how the CPC aren't the gov't. Who am I to say it's one of the other?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 04:11 PM
Personally, I like my 75 cents, and every firewall we can put up to keep my money in my province, and to keep Ottawa out of my province is a good thing.

I would much rather my money went to paying the additional costs of protecting Alberta than went to some corrupt Liberal's pocket.

I'm all for the firewall idea, I mean in my mind as radical as it is, we send enough money out of the province to support our own services and requirements, and protect ourselves from further incursions from a government that is completely out of touch with this region, and shows no concern with closing that gap.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 09:11 AM
Personally, I like my 75 cents, and every firewall we can put up to keep my money in my province, and to keep Ottawa out of my province is a good thing.

I would much rather my money went to paying the additional costs of protecting Alberta than went to some corrupt Liberal's pocket.

But how much did you complain when Ralph Klein sold the Holy Cross to his good personal friends who work in private health care for pennies on the dollar?

That cost you more then the entire adscam scandel...

Did it cause you to vote NDP?

Did your disgust at losing a few dollars because of Alberta-PC corruption change your vote?

Did you complain when the Alberta papers didn't push the story?

Did you complain when people kept voting PC?

Did you lament the end of good governnance and the need to assert Municiple power over Provincial jurisdiction?





[V - Not directed at you Snakeeye ]

Government is government, to suggest that it is better to have your personal life controlled by one level of government instead of another because that level suits YOUR lifestyle is ignorant and ignores the true joy of living in an open and free world. Generation after generation is so wlling to give up the gains of the generation before it in the hopes of finding some fascist ideal that suits them and their family at the expense of their neighbours.

My point was simply that 75c/yr should not be the cost of my freedom in this country. The only thing keeping Alberta from becoming some bastion of odd, right wing American-protastant-style christian ethics at the expense of everyone else's life is Ottawa.

I am all for cracking down on corruption, but that does not mean that government is evil. Have you spent 75c on something you shouldn't have this year? A chocolate bar maybe? Some sweets you didn't need? It is always good to trim the fat but mistakes happen.

I think talking about the need for a forth branch of gevernment, an auditing department with real power to over see spending and protect tax payers, is a far more interesting avenue of discussion and movement towards a better lifestyle as Canadians then a discussion about how we need to insulate ourselves as likeminded Alberta red-necks so that we can all own assult rifles and control the dirty gays and filthy abortive mothers and evil 'lets give em life in prison' pot smokers...

No wonder people in the East don't vote for 'our' party.... maybe if we had good leadership, good idea's, and good salesmanship we might get somewhere?




Claeren.

[fokakya]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 21 2005, 09:25 AM
I think talking about the need for a forth branch of gevernment, an auditing department with real power to over see spending and protect tax payers, is a far more interesting avenue of discussion and movement towards a better lifestyle as Canadians then a discussion about how we need to insulate ourselves as likeminded Alberta red-necks so that we can all own assult rifles and control the dirty gays and filthy abortive mothers and evil 'lets give em life in prison' pot smokers...

An interesting notion indeed... Internal Affairs is a very important part of police organizations that prevents them from abusing their power. I think I would definitely support some sort of similar system for our federal and even provincial governments.

[fokakya]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 09:23 AM
I'm all for the firewall idea, I mean in my mind as radical as it is, we send enough money out of the province to support our own services and requirements, and protect ourselves from further incursions from a government that is completely out of touch with this region, and shows no concern with closing that gap.

Where do people get the idea that Alberta will have to send a higher and higher percentage of its money outward to aid the other provinces? I could very well be wron but I don't think I've ever seen that as a mandate. The federal government is not "after Alberta's money". The money brought in from this province is indeed a very important part of the Canadian economy and quite a lot of it is used for funding services and such of other parts of Canada, however, the feds are not constantly seeking more money from Alberta trying to empty our pockets to fill theirs.

An economic firewall is a ridiculous idea. Far-right conservatives are constantly forgetting that this is a Country and Alberta has just as much responsibility to it as every other province. And don't bring up seperation, that is an even more ludicrous idea than a firewall...

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout+May 21 2005, 09:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maritime Q-Scout @ May 21 2005, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@May 21 2005, 03:29 AM
I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Damn democracy and everything it stands for! Alberta didn't get what it wanted, so it's wrong!

[/b][/quote]
You consider this democracy where MPs can be bought? This isn't the democracy that I have come to expect from a nation like Canada.

The Canadian people wanted a corrupt government. Well I guess that is what fear mongering, and calling an early election before the commission could get underway will do. Not only is the government corrupt, but they have time and time again failed to spend our money in an efficient manner, and that has been happening for over a decade now, and yet the fear mongering continues where the CPC is just a bunch of red-necks who are KKK members and want to ban abortions and get rid of medicare.

And if we are all for democracy, why shouldn't Alberta be able to seperate if we feel we are not getting a fair shake. Wouldn't the follow through with the principles of democracy, or should we just expect another Trudeau one finger salute to that too?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@May 21 2005, 04:39 PM
You consider this democracy where MPs can be bought? This isn't the democracy that I have come to expect from a nation like Canada.

Soooo.... which democracy isn't 'corrupt'?

Where would you rather live? Who's system are you suggesting we emulate? Show me a country that isn't 'corrupt', and I'll show you a scandal that proves otherwise. Every country/democracy has issues. It just so happens that we're experiencing one now (and the rhetoric is over the top).

Do you honestly think this is the first or largest scandal in democratic politics on this planet? Are we to expect more from 'Canadian' democracy for some intangible reason than any other democracy deserves? Are we better than every other country, but we're just not proving it today?

Hardly. Welcome to humanity, where not everyone is as pure, innocent, and good of heart as Mr. Harper.

[photon]

Wasn't there a commitment on the part of the government 10 years ago after the Quebec referendum to move power from the federal government to the provinces? Whatever happened to that?

I hate politics, but one thing I can agree to is less power for the federal government and more power for the provincial governments.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+May 21 2005, 08:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ May 21 2005, 08:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm not buying the argument that it was a few individuals, its too wide spread for it to be anything but the Liberal Party, and way to well planned. [/b]

How have you come to that conclusion so decisively?

Which individuals are you convinced were involved that make it too wide spread for it to be anything but the Liberal Party?

And how was it too well planned? So long as you're in control of a legitimate pile of money and get to call the shots on where it goes, it doesn't take much planning to demand a kickback under the table from those who are seeking contracts.

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 08:32 AM
... the fact that our current prime minister is setting a great example by reflagging his ships to avoid taxation.

That's a legitimate corporate strategy that Parliament has chosen to leave in the books. Criticizing a businessman for taking advantage of it is like criticizing someone who takes advantage of the ability to deduct charitable contributions.

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 08:32 AM
The fact that he called an early election last year to avoid having Gomery taint his party during the vote.

Yes, the Liberals called the election when it was most politically advantageous. The Conservatives just tried to do the same thing. If you want to decide that the Liberals were shady for what they did the fine, but don't delude yourself into believing any other party would act differently.

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 08:32 AM
The fact that Gomery really has no teeth, and nothing is going to come up at the end to effect changes.

Here's a link to a discussion I had with Shawnski, outlining the teeth Gomery has, including the fact that Gomery is "entitled to draw conclusions as to whether there has been misconduct and who may be responsible for it".

I then followed that up with an argument on how holding individuals responsible will effect changes.

<!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 08:32 AM
I also look at the wastage as corruption, the HR scandal, the gun registry and the office building issues, etc etc etc.

The Liberals are either corrupt, or incompetant, and to me that means that shouldn't be anywhere near the check book, until they totally come clean and clean house.[/quote]

Is the party corrupt? Well that goes back to the first quote, so I'll leave it there.

Is the party incompetent? They've certainly made some huge mistakes, but even with those mistakes the took over a country which, under the PCs, had doubled the national debt from $250 billion to $500 billon and was constantly in deficits and turned it into one which has one of the strongest economies among the G8 and was able to weather a global slowdown that knocked the US into the largest deficits in world history, is constantly running surpluses and paying down that massive debt.

Hard to call them incompetent.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by fokakya+May 21 2005, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fokakya @ May 21 2005, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 09:23 AM
I'm all for the firewall idea, I mean in my mind as radical as it is, we send enough money out of the province to support our own services and requirements, and protect ourselves from further incursions from a government that is completely out of touch with this region, and shows no concern with closing that gap.

Where do people get the idea that Alberta will have to send a higher and higher percentage of its money outward to aid the other provinces? I could very well be wron but I don't think I've ever seen that as a mandate. The federal government is not "after Alberta's money". The money brought in from this province is indeed a very important part of the Canadian economy and quite a lot of it is used for funding services and such of other parts of Canada, however, the feds are not constantly seeking more money from Alberta trying to empty our pockets to fill theirs.

An economic firewall is a ridiculous idea. Far-right conservatives are constantly forgetting that this is a Country and Alberta has just as much responsibility to it as every other province. And don't bring up seperation, that is an even more ludicrous idea than a firewall... [/b][/quote]
Sure Alberta has a responsibility to the other provinces in Canada, I have no trouble with that at all. What I have a huge problem with is a Federal Government who basically and admittedly under Jean Chretien stated that they can't understand how we think, and that they basically strongly disliked us.

I have a huge problem with a government who dosen't try to close the democratic gap, and try to gain some understanding from a province who gives far more then it receives.

I have a huge problem with a government that see's fit to punish areas that don't vote for it.

Its a federal government responsible for the entire nation, its not a givernment that should only be concerned with specific regions that support it

I love these constant lectures that Alberta is whining that we don't get our way, that we're rural to Ontario's mighty urban thoughts.

Its pretty plain that the Liberal's don't care two craps about Alberta, and are content that we're sending them checks every months.

If the way that the Liberal government works is to be considered democracy in a modern form, then democracy has failed, and needs to be serverely reformed.

The fact that this country continues to prop up a corrupt, cynical, incompetant government completely blows my mind. The fact that we allow the Liberal's to continue to hold onto government by buying votes, and spending our money on thier election ideals makes me puke.

The fact that people go to sleep at night believing that Stephen Harper is a jack booted hate mongering, facist because the Liberal's tell them its true, makes me completely laugh.

We talk about Canadian's in a very high light, and I love Canada and the Canadian people, but in the back of my mind I think we've really over estimated our implied intelligence.

And from me, thats all folks.

[CaramonLS]

I don't think Alberta should seperate - but I do agree with some of HOZ's statements...

Its not a democracy when your vote doesn't count. How many days did Martin campaign here? How many dads did JC campaign here (previous election), Not sure about Martin, but it was 1 DAY for the entire province of Alberta, about 3 hours in Calgary.

When the PM doesn't even give a shinguard about you when hes trying to be reelected? Thats democracy.

At least in Rhode Island they don't have so much of a problem, sure their votes for House of commons is pretty slim, but they get their power in the Senate. 2 Seats per state which helps regional representation dramatically.

Thats why I've voted for Reform all these years. Not for a government who continues to have this ineffective, money sucking body called the Senate, which is just for friends of the PM and various other patronage payouts.

The Triple E senate is the way to go.