Healthcare - US vs Canada

[dustygoon]

I was debating the merits of Canadian healthcare vs US healthcare with a fellow at work. In particular, we were talking about which is better for lower income people. I was on the side that Canada offered better care for lower income people than Medicaid does. This is one of those areas where I think the answer is so obvious and take it at face value. But does anyone know of any studies (UN, etc) that give some support to either side of the argument?

[MarchHare]

Saying which is better is a highly subjective and loaded question.

Canadians have higher life expectancies than Americans, and the rate of infant mortality is higher in the US than it is here (and even Cuba has better healthcare than the US in that respect!).

The rule of thumb I've always heard is that the US has the best health system in the world if you can afford it, but for the poor and middle classes, socialized medicine is usually a better choice. Unfortunately I can't back that up with statistics, so I'm not really any help to you there.

One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that bankruptcies are very much on the rise in the US, and medical bills are the leading cause.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/conte...thaff.w5.63/DC1

In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9–2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick.

Emphasis mine.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 18 2005, 02:48 PM
Saying which is better is a highly subjective and loaded question.

Canadians have higher life expectancies than Americans, and the rate of infant mortality is higher in the US than it is here (and even Cuba has better healthcare than the US in that respect!).

The rule of thumb I've always heard is that the US has the best health system in the world if you can afford it, but for the poor and middle classes, socialized medicine is usually a better choice. Unfortunately I can't back that up with statistics, so I'm not really any help to you there.

One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that bankruptcies are very much on the rise in the US, and medical bills are the leading cause.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/conte...thaff.w5.63/DC1

Emphasis mine.

I know it is subjective. But it is one of those debates that I am positive some studies exist to support either side a bit but I couldn't find them.

[Table 5]

all I know is this.

A routine Hepatitis vacine I needed to take cost me about $12 in Canada. When the time came for the next cycle, I was already in the US, and had to take it here. They charged me around $300. Both were done in a very professional and prompt manner.

Now of course the matter is much more complicated, but when it comes to routine medical treatments, I know which one I prefer.

[RougeUnderoos]

A few things from the 2003 Economist World Book of Figures...

Highest health spending as % of GDP

1. USA @ 12.9%
8. Canada @ 9.5%

Their GDP is so freaking enormous compared to everyone else that this is a big thing IMO.

Hospital Beds per 1000 people
1. Switzerland 18.1
47. Canada 4.1
55. USA 3.5

AIDS cases per 100,000 population

1. Namibia 1,485
16. Rwanda 297
17. Thailand 289.0
18. United States 284.6
19. Togo 266.1
40. Haiti 109.3

List ends at 40. I don't know where Canada sits. That's a bad one.

Lowest infant mortality per 1000 live births
1. Japan
17. Canada
26. New Zealand

List ends at 26.

Life expectancy

1. Japan 81.5
10. Canada 79.0
28. USA 77.5

Random... USA has more doctors. Canada has more deaths from cancer, they have more from heart attack.

Neither country is in the top 23 for smoking cigarettes. The Yanks drink more beer than us! 65.5 litres for them, 49.7 for us.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@May 18 2005, 06:58 PM
A few things from the 2003 Economist World Book of Figures...

Highest health spending as % of GDP

1. USA @ 12.9%
8. Canada @ 9.5%

Their GDP is so freaking enormous compared to everyone else that this is a big thing IMO.

Hospital Beds per 1000 people
1. Switzerland 18.1
47. Canada 4.1
55. USA 3.5

AIDS cases per 100,000 population

1. Namibia 1,485
16. Rwanda 297
17. Thailand 289.0
18. United States 284.6
19. Togo 266.1
40. Haiti 109.3

List ends at 40. I don't know where Canada sits. That's a bad one.

Lowest infant mortality per 1000 live births
1. Japan
17. Canada
26. New Zealand

List ends at 26.

Life expectancy

1. Japan 81.5
10. Canada 79.0
28. USA 77.5

Random... USA has more doctors. Canada has more deaths from cancer, they have more from heart attack.

Neither country is in the top 23 for smoking cigarettes. The Yanks drink more beer than us! 65.5 litres for them, 49.7 for us.

red panties....thanks! exactly the kind of stuff i was looking for. economist has some good stuff over there.

does anyone out there who has lived in both countries think the US health system treats its lower income people better than canada?

[Looger]

there's no question that certain administrative aspects of canada's health system are real, real bad ideas.

i indirectly know a guy that died, in mackenzie bc, if a preventable form of cancer who was on a huge waiting list for MRI.

he was told by friends to just drive down to washington where there are MRI trucks that charge $150. he declined. those six months cost him his life.

these machines cost eight figures and they aren't mill equipment - there's no gears or drives. their maintenance schedule is quite low-cost compared to machines i've worked on that cost that much.

why aren't MRI machines running more hours a day?

i have no idea.

[socalwingfan]

A friend of mine who is a contrator cut her finger on some glass and required 5 -10 stitches to close up the cut. She did not have any insurance at the time and it ended up costing her $5000 when all was said and done.

I have gone to the doctor for a few broken bones and a stingray sting and I was lucky if the doctor spent 3 minutes with me each vist ( at $100 per visit - and I have health insurance) . They get you in, diagnose you and shuffle you out as fast as they can.
In LA, there are doctors that only care for a certain number of patients but you have to pay through the a$$ to become one of their patients if you can find one that's accepting new patients.

In summary, if you cannot afford health insurance in the US - you better not get sick.

[Gugstanley]

Health insurance is rapidly becoming a big problem in the US. At the pace the rates are going up nobody will be able to afford it.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by fotze@May 18 2005, 07:43 PM
My wife is from the states, and she has noted that the level of care here is a little lower here, but once again you don't pay through the T**s to get it.

Her family friend from Denmark who is a nerosurgeon has a child with bouts of unexplained paralysis. He is taking him to the states for better care. So in conclusion, who knows about US and Canada, but one things for sure Denmark's system is fataed. This now ends this pointless story of mine.

Without a doubt i have found the health care in the USA and the UK better than Canada. This is solely because i had private health insurance. I had hernia surgery in the UK....i picked the time of my surgery down to the hour.....and only had to wait 1 week. My MRI in the US was again booked one week in advance.

I think there are ways to improve the Canadian health system without throwing a bunch of money at it and without privatized healthcare (although i would like to see some privatization). Inefficient costs could be stripped out by getting rid of duplication at the provincial level (Why do you need a health authority for each province?). Buy drugs and machines at the national level in order to improve purchasing power. Get the governments out of the business of running the day to day operations of hospitals.

[RougeUnderoos]

I guess the moral of the story is if you can pay for it in the States, you get better treatment.

What's it cost for a single guy to get full coverage?

A relative of mine has loads of money but often complains of the cost of insurance for the 6 months a year she spends in the States.

This is kind of an interesting story... flying to India to get your medical procedures done for cheap

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/21/...C-SearchStoriesStory!

[Claeren]

Vacation-Surgery (as they call it) is surging in Thailand big time. Worth millions already and they are activily advertising in many markets...


Claeren.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 18 2005, 03:48 PM
The rule of thumb I've always heard is that the US has the best health system in the world if you can afford it, but for the poor and middle classes, socialized medicine is usually a better choice.

The poor and middle class cant afford it because the health system is socialized (along with the economy). You are mistaking cause for effect.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 18 2005, 11:36 PM
Vacation-Surgery (as they call it) is surging in Thailand big time. Worth millions already and they are activily advertising in many markets...


Claeren.

I was in Korea a few days ago, and it seems they are after the same thing. They are trying to privatize health care so they can attract new patients from abroad and charge them loads of cash for whatever medical needs they have. It's a real mone making scheme that seems to be sweeping a lot of Asia.

On a sidenote, I'm in China right now and just got out of the hospital. I developed an arm infection and had to get minor surgery and antibiotics pumped into me to get rid of it. The total cost so far is about $130 CDN for 75 pills, 4 bottles of IV drip antibiotics (250ml each), 1 surgery by 2 doctors, and a bed for 2 hrs a day for the last 2 days. However, the reason its so cheap over here is because large group companies have their own hospitals, so if you don't work for that group company you can't get treated. I've been treated like gold by these guys, but I can't imagine what it would be like for the average farmer off the street who just chopped his hands off in a farm machine to find treatment.

After going through something like this I've got no doubt in my mind that there are some things in life worth paying for, and Canadian health care is one of them. This is one experience I can't say I would like to go through outside of Canada ever again.

[Cheese]

I went to an online Health quote section for costs on insuring my family in the USA (State of New York). This would be a typical family of 4 in good health.

This is the quote I got...best price.


Premium:

$837.78 monthly

There is also a deductable.....I think Ill stick to my somewhat slower Canadian service.

[Cheese]

I ran the same program for a single man aged 25 in good health...

you guys would pay...


Premium:

$334.09 monthly

[Cheese]

In Ontario we dont pay anything....other than our taxes.

[Claeren]

Income tax and PST combined.

Assuming 5% extra in taxes and 30,000/yr in income it is an extra $125/month/income earner.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by Cheese@May 19 2005, 04:24 PM
I ran the same program for a single man aged 25 in good health...

you guys would pay...


Premium:

$334.09 monthly

Wow. My employer pays mine....i don't think they are paying that much....probably because we are part of a group plan or something. I hear ads on the radio all the time of insurance companies trying to sell family health insurance to those who are self employed. The "starting at" price on the radio wasn't too brutal but you know what "starting at" can mean!

Back to the original question i had....I guess i am not going to get stats but do most of you agree that the lower income earners are better off under Canada's health system than the US one?

[notoepik]

Originally posted by dustygoon@May 19 2005, 01:02 PM
Back to the original question i had....I guess i am not going to get stats but do most of you agree that the lower income earners are better off under Canada's health system than the US one?

I don't know how good the medical care is in Canada, but I can tell you that here in Montana if you are poor, you get pretty good medical care. Medicaid is provided to the low income people by the State. Adults over the age 18 pay $2.00 a visit. Under 18 is no charge at all.

Those Hepatitis vaccines Table 5 complained are free for the medicaid covered patient. All childrens vaccines are provided at no charge for kids that are covered my medicaid.

I have health insurance through my company. They pay for my premium, and I pay for the rest of my family. I pay about $6000.00 a year to insure them, and we have a deductible of $3000.00 before insurance kicks in to cover anything.

So, I would say, the poor have the same health care available to them that I do, but I pay a lot for mine. We see the same Doctors, have access to the same testing facilities, and the same hospitals.