Why are American soldiers loved now.....

[GirlySports]

when they were spat upon 40 years ago?

Just something I was thinking about watching the World Series. American troops are coming home and being celebrated everywhere for being heroes (which they certainly are). They are always part of the pre-game, anthems, God Bless America etc.. I think this is all great.

But 40 years ago when they withdrew from Vietnam, they were vilified and shamed. No sports team or organization would have ever invited them to anything or would have been associated with them in anyway. And the majority of those soldiers were conscripted, not serving voluntarily like today.

So what's changed? Is this an act of making a wrong in the past a right today? Are people more educated about the military's efforts today? Were baby bombers in the 70s just jerks? What's caused the 180?

[Weiser Wonder]

There's a difference between voluntary military service and a draft. People tend to start looking at the military differently when they are forced into it.

[CaptainCrunch]

There was a lot of negative propaganda put forth by the protest movement about 40 years ago, American soldiers were baby killers, and evil imperialist death squads. The peace movement was incredibly good at vilifying everything. But they had no clue about what these 18 and 19 year old conscripted soldiers went through during a horrible horrible war. Once again the Protest Movement cut a wide swath during their protests.

The you had the intellectual left that basically portrayed Soldiers as semi literate ######ed killing machines.

True story, when I was serving I was taking a public transport home when I had a semi drunken middle age woman who would have been in her 20's during the Vietnam conflict stand up in her glorious fur coat and scream at me and one of my squad buddies that we were horrible baby killers, and we should be tried for war crimes.

As much as I wanted to remark about her fur coat, and the fact that she looked like a live version of Cruella De Ville we pointedly ignored her while she continued to berate us.

The other thing that turned American sentiment about the military around was 9/11. After Vietnam the American Soldier and Military was treated with outright mistrust and hatred. During the cold war years after Nam American's pretty much pointedly ignored the American Military. They had a major turnaround in the first Gulf War, but it didn't really explode til 9/11 where they were seen as guardians and avenging angels doing a horrible and incredible tough job.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

There's a difference between voluntary military service and a draft. People tend to start looking at the military differently when they are forced into it.

For the most part I disagree. The peace movement hated conscription and saw every member of conscription as a victim. But once you were in uniform and in the war you became a hated enemy and a focus of protest.

The hippies didn't separate the volunteers from the drafted.

There is an element to volunteer soldiers that you are bang on about, the American Military has done a great job of portraying their soldiers as volunteer guardians.

However the Stop Loss movement made it almost seem like conscription again.

[worth]

They're loved now because of the way they were treated 40 years ago.

[GirlySports]

But isn't the protest movement today just as strong? The majority of Americans hate these wars just as much as those in the 70s.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There was a lot of negative propaganda put forth by the protest movement about 40 years ago, American soldiers were baby killers, and evil imperialist death squads. The peace movement was incredibly good at vilifying everything. But they had no clue about what these 18 and 19 year old conscripted soldiers went through during a horrible horrible war. Once again the Protest Movement cut a wide swath during their protests.

.

To be fair, a lot of soldiers that came back participated in the protest movement.

The Vietnam War was the world's first televised war and the public became exposed to the dark side of war which was a big reality check. A lot of things that happened in the war were war crimes by the standards we use now, and those standards exist partly because of what the public was able to witness.

If U.S. soldiers were using the same tactics as in Vietnam and if it was all on the evening news, I doubt they would enjoy the same hero status that they do now.

I guess is what I am trying to say is that tactics and technology has allowed them to fight a "gentler" war. (Not that bad incidents don't still happen from time-to-time though)

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But isn't the protest movement today just as strong? The majority of Americans hate these wars just as much as those in the 70s.

Hate the war not the soldier. That's the difference between now and then, people didn't differentiate between the two.

[nik-]

A better directing of ire towards policy and not the soldier?

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There was a lot of negative propaganda put forth by the protest movement about 40 years ago, American soldiers were baby killers, and evil imperialist death squads. The peace movement was incredibly good at vilifying everything. But they had no clue about what these 18 and 19 year old conscripted soldiers went through during a horrible horrible war. Once again the Protest Movement cut a wide swath during their protests.

The you had the intellectual left that basically portrayed Soldiers as semi literate ######ed killing machines.

True story, when I was serving I was taking a public transport home when I had a semi drunken middle age woman who would have been in her 20's during the Vietnam conflict stand up in her glorious fur coat and scream at me and one of my squad buddies that we were horrible baby killers, and we should be tried for war crimes.

As much as I wanted to remark about her fur coat, and the fact that she looked like a live version of Cruella De Ville we pointedly ignored her while she continued to berate us.

Please tell me someone stood up on your behalf.

[Azure]

People do less drugs now then they did back then, so they can actually process the simple thought in their head that the soldiers don't pick what war they get involved in.

[RT14]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Were baby bombers in the 70s just jerks?

Baby bombers should be considered jerks no matter what decade they're from.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

For the most part I disagree. The peace movement hated conscription and saw every member of conscription as a victim. But once you were in uniform and in the war you became a hated enemy and a focus of protest.

The hippies didn't separate the volunteers from the drafted.

There is an element to volunteer soldiers that you are bang on about, the American Military has done a great job of portraying their soldiers as volunteer guardians.

However the Stop Loss movement made it almost seem like conscription again.

People will be much more mobilized and passionate about a policy that affects them personally. I'm guessing a huge amount of the hatred stemmed from fear of getting drafted or facing the consequences of draft dodging. Every person that accepts conscription is one more person endangering the anti-war movement, thus endangering the anti-war protesters themselves.

And I agree that there's some nasty recruiting methods that almost act as conscription for the lower end of high school graduates.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Please tell me someone stood up on your behalf.

Nope

[Itse]

The Pentagon has also picked up it's propaganda in a huge way. American war fiction is almost as bad in it's ridiculously over the top patriotic rah-rah than it was post WWII. Maybe even worse in some ways (although better in others).

The Pentagon puts a lot of effort in having every war film be tightly controlled in the way it likes. (Recommended viewing: the documentary "Project Hollywood". It's on youtube, although in really poor quality.)

Having just watched the Pacific, half of the series ran like an education/recruitment film. The episode where the American go on R&R in Australia was almost bad enough to be a parody. Beautiful women flock to every GI on R&R, officers smile benevolently at marines passing out or vomiting over their table etc... Sure, the battle itself is depicted as hellish, but all of the main characters are eventually fine with it. They go home intact, mentally and physically, they all marry, become writers, professors etc. Two characters suffer from minor mental issues, and both are just fine without any real treatment. One needs a couple of sarcastic chats with a doctor and a burger, the other maybe a week or two of sitting under a tree at home. The one main character that dies is a huge hero, who's wife never remarries. (And yes, I know it's all based on true stuff. The problem is, there were thousands of stories available, it's not an accident they picked the ones they picked.)

Just as a small example of ridiculously how the Pacific portrays soldiers, basicly any time a marine does something improper, no matter how small (other than killing Japs in questionable ways, and many times even then) another marine makes a correcting remark, or it is depicted as lovably funny. As other minor notes; no equipment ever breaks (except the one occasion where blatantly mishandled grenades don't fire), nobody drowns in a pothole or dies of fever,

Lacking the otherwise superior human depictions and script of Band of Brothers, the Pacific was downright scary to watch as a non-American.

EDIT: Also, huge effort is put into controlling the news about any war the Americans fight in. And do you really think all the public displays of support for "the fighting men and women" just came about spontaneously, that the Pentagon propaganda offices played no part in making them happen?

EDIT2: About "Project Hollywood"; even this supposedly critical document falls victim to many rather dumb propagandistic depictions of history, for example stating that WWI was somehow about democracy.

[Yasa]

Don't forget the internet these days plays a huge part. The message of "hate the war, not the soldier" can be spread around a lot faster and easier. The soldiers have more lines of contact to the public and can share their stories and such.

I have no idea if this is a legit reason, but it seems like it could be.

[Bonded]

Also. Michael Bay, Transformers felt like one big GI Joe ad for the American Military

[Itse]

Just came to me, Extra Credits (which is excellent stuff for anyone interested in games in general) just did an episode about propaganda games, which I think is quite relevant here.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/propaganda-games

One of the scariest/most depressing points is that a lot of what is essentially US military propaganda gets produced simply for profit, simply repeating the most simplistic POV's and talking points out there, over and over again.

(EDIT: of course the US is not the only country producing similar stuff, it's just the point of discussion here.)

[GirlySports]

But soldiers were viewed as heroes in WWII. Even in movies.

Just seems to me like the 70s was a dark period and the government and everyone threw the soldiers under the bus.

[Vulcan]

Well Viet Nam was a hugely unpopular war, especially for the age group who had to fight it. Like others said, it was televised into our living rooms every supper time unedited and uncut so we could see the horrors and body bags. Soldiers were put on trial for atrocities and the whole war was based on a false flag operation. The same as the Iraq war but Iraq was closely censured, so most of the population didn't know it.

At the time of the cold war, many believed in the Domino Theory and looked at the Viet Nam war as just one more step for Communism to take over the far East and the world. This was a real fear to most, even the leaders and they didn't understand that Viet Nam was actually a war of independence and allying with Russia was more a case of the enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

There was real hatred among the educated young people asked to go fight a war that was little more than a practise for the politicians and the war industry.


There was a draft of course during the Viet Nam war but that didn't mean draftees didn't have a choice. The could burn their draft cards and go to jail or they could move to Canada or Europe and a lot of youth considered this a viable choice, so the vilifying of the soldiers who enlisted. To be fair though most of the draftees who enlisted knew little of why the US was in Viet Nam.

Another big reason, sad as it is for the soldiers lose of love, is that they lost.