DBA vs Web Dev - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

FanIn80 · 03-23-2010, 11:58 AM

I need to figure this out pretty quick.

Going in to this school thing that I started back in Sept, my focus was going to be on web app development. I start my first "major" class in this track in less than four weeks...

Here's the deal, though. I'm really looking hard at the DBA stuff now. I've always liked databases, although I've had limited experience. Mostly MS SQL and MySql, but now I'm in the middle of an Oracle class and I'm really remembering how much I enjoy DB work.

So... There is a DBA track I can follow instead of Web Dev. I'm curious what some of you people think, though. Also, how much development work will a DBA do? Is it all just admin stuff, or do they actually get in there and get their hands dirty with designing, building, altering, etc?

GreenTeaFrapp · 03-23-2010, 11:59 AM

You'd be better off with the web dev stuff since there's no iSQL or MacSQL.

FanIn80 · 03-23-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

You'd be better off with the web dev stuff since there's no iSQL or MacSQL.

Don't worry, MySQL runs better on a Mac.

photon · 03-23-2010, 12:06 PM

Lol

A DBA can involve a lot of design and development work, a great DBA is necessary for big apps with lots of data.

But they are two very different worlds.. DBA is all about the data, a pure wirehead / nerd type job, whereas a web dev is concerned about a lot of other things, like usability, psychology, even design, depending on what kind of web dev it is.. some web developers just code the pages but never worry or care how it looks, while others kind of do it all.

But very different kinds of jobs I think, hard to compare them. Like comparing apples and oranges.

FanIn80 · 03-23-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photon

But very different kinds of jobs I think, hard to compare them. Like comparing apples and oranges.

oooo I see what you did there.

Yeah, I guess they are completely different things. I'm a bit concerned by the wirehead bit though. I'm not really much for the nerd stuff... On the other side, though, I really hate layout work.

Here's my thinking:

- There's probably 1000 web guys for every DB guy.
- DB guy doesn't have to put up with a project manager or QA guy telling him to change the colour of a button five times... or other brilliant things like reversing the order of the OK/Cancel buttons on every form.
- DB guy doesn't have to constantly explain his work to people who have no hope of ever understanding it.
- I like data. I like the SQL language (simple, elegant, powerful). I like building reports etc.
- I like programming. I especially like the idea of programming for the web.
- I hate layout and design. I'm not a graphic artist, and I don't want to be. I spend more time screwing around with tables and layers...

Essentially, I'd like to do web stuff but I'm really worried about subjecting myself to some of the stuff I've seen other devs have to go through. The other thing I'm concerned with is competition. I like the odds of applying for a DB job when there's only a couple actual DBAs in the pile of resumes, vs a web job when everyone and their dog is a web guy. Plus, I really do like data...

MelBridgeman · 03-23-2010, 12:22 PM

I do both. Chances are in a smaller company or as an independent contractor, you'll need be able to do both, Well at least I do...but i would head down the web dev path. DBA stuff just read a book.

photon · 03-23-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Yeah, I guess they are completely different things. I'm a bit concerned by the wirehead bit though. I'm not really much for the nerd stuff... On the other side, though, I really hate layout work.

Most DBAs I know are really geeky about it, not that they can't be normal people with a real life and kids and a dog or something (one DBA I know is pretty cool), but an inordinate # of them I know are the stereotypical open source nerds with the full-on beard, anti-social curmudgeons, etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

- There's probably 1000 web guys for every DB guy.

Which means fewer jobs available as well, so you have to be good at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

- DB guy doesn't have to put up with a project manager or QA guy telling him to change the colour of a button five times... or other brilliant things like reversing the order of the OK/Cancel buttons on every form.

This is why I like server side programming and hate web programming, one of the reasons anyway.

On the other hand you will have developers renaming their columns, changing their schemas as apps change at a whim, ignoring your normalization/denormalization, and mostly writing applications with no consideration at all for the underlying data structure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

- DB guy doesn't have to constantly explain his work to people who have no hope of ever understanding it.

I think it's worse for a DBA cause it's harder to understand!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

- I like data. I like the SQL language (simple, elegant, powerful). I like building reports etc.
- I like programming. I especially like the idea of programming for the web.
- I hate layout and design. I'm not a graphic artist, and I don't want to be. I spend more time screwing around with tables and layers...

There are web programmers who deal less with the front end stuff, who worry more about the business logic and how to get the data to the page so the designer can decide where to put it and such, so that might be a place to focus too, and likely either path would get you to that point.. you'd just have to work outwards from the DBA path or work inwards from the web-dev path (I assume the web dev path is heavily directed towards the visual stuff).

FurnaceFace · 03-23-2010, 12:31 PM

I'd say in the companies I've worked in, a person with database skills is more highly sought after and coveted. I'd think someone who can plan a database and can code is more valuable than a coder. I also see them as a step or two closer to "architect" which is even better. I believe either a developer or a DB guy can learn each others parts so in the end it likely doesn't matter. You'll end up learning both as you're interested in both. If you think it would be harder to learn one or the other on your own then study the harder one.

photon · 03-23-2010, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I do both. Chances are in a smaller company or as an independent contractor, you'll need be able to do both, Well at least I do...but i would head down the web dev path. DBA stuff just read a book.

That's true, and for the superficial stuff or easy stuff you can get away with reading for DBA type stuff, but there comes a point where an experienced DBA is really necessary.. but of course if you are at that point, the project you are involved with will probably have money to access one because projects that need DBAs usually do so because of volume.

Not always though, some projects start out with gigs or TB of data or a very complex database, and usually you'll have a good idea up front if you really need a DBA or not.

FanIn80 · 03-23-2010, 12:32 PM

Well, if this helps... here are the courses from the two different tracks:

DBA: Advanced Database with Lab
This course introduces database implications of efficient and effective transaction processing, including error handling, data validation, security, stored procedures and triggers, record locking, commit and rollback. Data mining and warehousing are also explored. DB2 is the primary relational database management system (RDBMS) used.

DBA: Database Administration with Lab
Students are introduced to a variety of database administration topics, including capacity planning, database management system (DBMS) architecture, performance tuning, backup, recovery and disaster planning, archiving, reorganization and defragmentation.

DBA: Advanced Topics in Database with Lab
Students in this course explore database topics such as dynamic structured query language (SQL), complex queries, data warehousing, reporting capability creation, performance tuning, and data security practices and technologies.

DBA: Data Privacy and Security
This course focuses on legal, ethical and security issues involving data and information assets organizations must address to ensure operational continuity as well as compliance with standards, policies and laws. Students examine various levels of threats to an organization[Char#25]s data and develop standards, policies, procedures and plans to combat them. Security technology specific to safeguarding data and information assets is also covered.

Web: Web Security
This course examines issues involved in protecting Web-based applications from external threats while safeguarding customer privacy and accessibility. Students examine external threats to an organization[Char#25]s systems and develop strategies that support systems and business goals.

Web: Principles of E-Commerce
This course provides comprehensive coverage of a broad spectrum of e-commerce principals, models and practices. Topics include Internet marketing and retailing; payment and order fulfillment; and various e-commerce models such as business-to-business (B2B) and consumer-to-consumer (C2C).

Web: Web Architecture with Lab
Building on networking concepts and principles explored in CIS-246, this course introduces students to Web architecture and connectivity. Topics include Internet protocols such as transmission control protocol/Internet protocol (TCP/IP); domain name server (DNS); simple mail transfer protocol (smtp), hypertext transfer protocol (http) and file transfer protocol (ftp); and design of an Internet or corporate intranet infrastructure to meet specific needs.

Web: Advanced Web Application Development with Lab
This course builds on basics of design, coding and scripting, as well as database connectivity for Web-based applications. Coursework introduces concepts of data interchange, message exchange and Web application components. A programming language such as Java, C#.Net or Visual Basic.Net is used to implement business-related Web-based applications.

Keeping in mind, of course, that these are all the "focus" courses. There are lots of ones from both tracks that are part of the general program.

photon · 03-23-2010, 12:33 PM

Cool, DB2! I'm working on DB2 right now for the first time.

psicodude · 03-23-2010, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Here's my thinking:

- There's probably 1000 web guys for every DB guy.
- DB guy doesn't have to put up with a project manager or QA guy telling him to change the colour of a button five times... or other brilliant things like reversing the order of the OK/Cancel buttons on every form.
- DB guy doesn't have to constantly explain his work to people who have no hope of ever understanding it.
- I like data. I like the SQL language (simple, elegant, powerful). I like building reports etc.
- I like programming. I especially like the idea of programming for the web.
- I hate layout and design. I'm not a graphic artist, and I don't want to be. I spend more time screwing around with tables and layers...

Essentially, I'd like to do web stuff but I'm really worried about subjecting myself to some of the stuff I've seen other devs have to go through. The other thing I'm concerned with is competition. I like the odds of applying for a DB job when there's only a couple actual DBAs in the pile of resumes, vs a web job when everyone and their dog is a web guy. Plus, I really do like data...

My experience says you have pretty much nailed it there.

Honestly, web devs are a dime a dozen outside of the elite few. They have a fairly low value to a lot of companies because they know they can replace you in 10 minutes.

A good DBA, however, is extremely valuable. We have 2 DBA's in my office and they are heavily involved in every project being worked on.

FurnaceFace · 03-23-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

- DB guy doesn't have to put up with a project manager or QA guy telling him to change the colour of a button five times... or other brilliant things like reversing the order of the OK/Cancel buttons on every form.

As a PM I have never told my developers to do something like this without a damn good reason...and I've pulled the developer in early enough to get their opinion and reasons why....in fact in this case the first person I call on is the designer. Often we're just the messenger and the customer has said this is what they want and have understood, and signed off on the extra time it will take to play trial and error with the look and feel.

MelBridgeman · 03-23-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photon

That's true, and for the superficial stuff or easy stuff you can get away with reading for DBA type stuff, but there comes a point where an experienced DBA is really necessary.. but of course if you are at that point, the project you are involved with will probably have money to access one because projects that need DBAs usually do so because of volume.

Not always though, some projects start out with gigs or TB of data or a very complex database, and usually you'll have a good idea up front if you really need a DBA or not.

Well the key here for any IT professional is the night course at SAIT or wherever. You can always get a DBA certificate or something later on. But it is essential that you continue your education. Secondly there is no better education then a job and working with people who have more experience then you as well.

GreenTeaFrapp · 03-23-2010, 12:42 PM

Personally, I think DBA is a better career path because you're better able to transition into enterprise level applications than with a Web Dev background. Pretty much every app these days requires a db back end while web dev jobs are going to be less and less in demand as content management systems continue to mature.

Bobblehead · 03-23-2010, 12:44 PM

There is a fair bit of development for me, but it all depends upon how the business you are working for wants to do things. Some places want the database to store the data and all business logic will be in other layers of software. I have quite a bit of code in my database, as well as in a library of SQL scripts used to extract data for a number of business function.
So it all depends upon the job you want and the business you end up at.

FanIn80 · 03-23-2010, 12:44 PM

So far, I'm leaning towards the DBA track. I'm going to see if I can sneak that one DB-related Web course in (the last one in my post) to go with it.

I appreciate there are ways to do web stuffs without getting into the design side, but I think the courses in the DBA track are just far more interesting to me. Not to mention, quite a bit more marketable (I'd imagine anyway). I think if I can pull off taking that one Web course along side the DBA ones, then I should be good for either route.

This is awesome stuff. Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback!

GreenTeaFrapp · 03-23-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Don't worry, MySQL runs better on a Mac.

Better then *nix? I doubt it!

bubbsy · 03-23-2010, 12:52 PM

DBA is a more specialized categorization in my opinion. I work in a telco software company, and the DBA doesn't really do much of the dev work, but is involved in the data design, application design, and system architecture phases of development.

photon · 03-23-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Better then *nix? I doubt it!

OSX is a *nix OS, it's built on Darwin, if you know unix you'll be at home at the command prompt in OSX.