Were airplanes really in imminent danger last week?

[nfotiu]

NBC nightly news last night is saying now that none of the terrorists had bought plane tickets. Lots didn't have passports. There is no indication that they've tested the liquid explosives anywhere. Nor is there indication that they've actually purchased any of the ingredients.

That is a whole lot different story than they were reporting when it happened. Looks like just another example of the British and American governments playing their fear games, and trying to make themselves look like great terrorist-busters.

[kermitology]

Does anyone know what the potential liquids were that they had planned to use as explosives?

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

NBC nightly news last night is saying now that none of the terrorists had bought plane tickets. Lots didn't have passports. There is no indication that they've tested the liquid explosives anywhere. Nor is there indication that they've actually purchased any of the ingredients.

That is a whole lot different story than they were reporting when it happened. Looks like just another example of the British and American governments playing their fear games, and trying to make themselves look like great terrorist-busters.

The fear mongering used by US government and the mainstream American media is laughable. I would bet the NBC report is correct, I'm sure their was a threat, but likely alot less imminent then what was being reported.

On a related note, I had to laugh last night watching CNN, now that the cease fire is in place they didnt have any pictures of war zones to cover so they rolled out a great program "In the Footsteps of Bin Laden"!

Basically "Hey American public, be scared be very scared, he is still alive and out there.....in fact he is coming for you all so be afraid dammit and dont question anything"

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

NBC nightly news last night is saying now that none of the terrorists had bought plane tickets. Lots didn't have passports. There is no indication that they've tested the liquid explosives anywhere. Nor is there indication that they've actually purchased any of the ingredients.

That is a whole lot different story than they were reporting when it happened. Looks like just another example of the British and American governments playing their fear games, and trying to make themselves look like great terrorist-busters.

Well if that is true, then I really question the timing. This event caused the whole world to turn their heads from the Isreal - Lebanon conflict, even if it was for a short time.

Oh no ... more conspiracy theories, I am going to get e-jumped

[FurnaceFace]

What I heard/read was the security agencies had this group "under surveillence" for some time however there was no immediate threat. They made the arrests last week because they had some evidence the plan may be ramping up. All of the arrests were at houses or flats or whatever. None of the arrests were made in the airports or near planes. I suspect they "pushed the panic button" because they were unable to locate/arrest a handful of people they knew were involved in the operation and also unsure if the arrests would kick off some sort of "plan B".

They are kind of damned if they do and damned if they don't do anything. I would agree they really seem to have overreacted.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

NBC nightly news last night is saying now that none of the terrorists had bought plane tickets. Lots didn't have passports. There is no indication that they've tested the liquid explosives anywhere. Nor is there indication that they've actually purchased any of the ingredients.

That is a whole lot different story than they were reporting when it happened. Looks like just another example of the British and American governments playing their fear games, and trying to make themselves look like great terrorist-busters.

You mean that when I got jumped on for saying,the minute the story was broken, that "something doesn't seem right", that I was justified in what I said? You mean when the usual bunch or clowns pounced on me and said I was talking out my ass that it was actually they who were talking out their asses? No! Say it isn't so!!! And to think, in that group we supposedly have the "military and intelligence" officers (one of which we have recently found out wasn't even born when Communism fell) who are so much more informed than some of us "mere civilians".

[Flashpoint]

Here's the link.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/

Wow, imagine the government blowing things out of proportion to scare people. Who wouldda thunk...

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You mean that when I got jumped on for saying,the minute the story was broken, that "something doesn't seem right", that I was justified in what I said? You mean when the usual bunch or clowns pounced on me and said I was talking out my ass that it was actually they who were talking out their asses? No! Say it isn't so!!! And to think, in that group we supposedly have the "military and intelligence" officers (one of which we have recently found out wasn't even born when Communism fell) who are so much more informed than some of us "mere civilians".

I have seen several reports that the organizers in Pakistan had sent several emails saying they need to start going on this operation. They were instructed to by tickets. The authorities have records from the internet companies showing that they were looking at several routes between britian and usa.

Now...this is what you said when this first happened.

Authorities have been wise to this plot now for over a decade and sophisticated equipment to detect explosives. All of a sudden it becomes a serious threat? Terrorists are supposed to be on the run and they have now been able to pull together the plot that Yousef and a "functioning" al Qaeeda could not when they had the elements of suprise and invisibility working for them? There was no elevation in alert status and no bulletins of possible threats. You don't break a 50 person operation over night. There are warning signs when that's going to happen. Something just doesn't smell right.

According to many sources this operation was not broke over night, they were under servallance for quite some time.

From what I take of your original post is you thought something was not right because you were under the impression that they just happen to stump across these guys and caught them right at the last minute.

What are the authorities suppose to do???????? Take the risk and catch them as they board the plane??? Maybe some would have gotten through, who knows. I think they did the right thing and acted sooner rather than later. As for the hightened security at ariports......personally I think it is a crock, the security measures that were in place worked so why tighten up more? But I guess its better safe than sorry and have another cell that they didn't know about get through.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What are the authorities suppose to do???????? Take the risk and catch them as they board the plane??? Maybe some would have gotten through, who knows. I think they did the right thing and acted sooner rather than later.

Well, according to the article linked:In contrast to previous reports, one senior British official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.
Doesn't this put the case against some of the perpetrators into doubt? I hope they have additional evidence against them, but by acting before any tickets had even been purchased won't that mean that, at best, they will only be charged with much lesser crimes?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

As for the hightened security at ariports......personally I think it is a crock, the security measures that were in place worked so why tighten up more? But I guess its better safe than sorry and have another cell that they didn't know about get through.

If people continue giving up their rights, then how much liberty is going to be left to protect?

I understand the intentions, but I also know what the road to Hell is paved with.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Does anyone know what the potential liquids were that they had planned to use as explosives?

I had heard somewhere that they were going to use some sort of peroxide-containing compound but I would take that with a grain of salt. Peroxide explosives can be described as dubious at best (Note that when I say peroxide I don't necessarily mean hydrogen peroxide, just anything with a R-O-O-R functional group).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

I had heard somewhere that they were going to use some sort of peroxide-containing compound but I would take that with a grain of salt. Peroxide explosives can be described as dubious at best (Note that when I say peroxide I don't necessarily mean hydrogen peroxide, just anything with a R-O-O-R functional group).

There was a bomb expert on QR 770, the day after this went down saying it was 'very' possible to use liquid explosives to cause severe damage to a plane.

He didn't mention what was going to be used though.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Maybe now the next time we take a flight we can buy a bottle of orange juice after we get through security.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I have seen several reports that the organizers in Pakistan had sent several emails saying they need to start going on this operation. They were instructed to by tickets. The authorities have records from the internet companies showing that they were looking at several routes between britian and usa.

So you're saying that this was going on for months and a very hot lead, yet DHS didn't notify anyone until hours after Heathrow had been shut down. Hate to break it to you, but that ain't SOP.

According to many sources this operation was not broke over night, they were under servallance for quite some time.

Yup, they may have been under servallance [sic] for some time, but that doesn't make them guilty of anything or breaking any laws. Based on our legal systems there has to be something other than a nasty e-mail or message board posting that gives the government the right to throw you in the klink. Well, that was before the USA PATRIOT act. I didn't realize that was in law over in Britian as well.

From what I take of your original post is you thought something was not right because you were under the impression that they just happen to stump across these guys and caught them right at the last minute.

That was the impression the news had given us. The information released was they had stopped people trying to get on planes and they were even afraid some had indeed got on planes and were headed to America. That information was from the British and United States governments.

What are the authorities suppose to do????????

How about act when they have evidence of something that will stand up in court?

Take the risk and catch them as they board the plane??? Maybe some would have gotten through, who knows. I think they did the right thing and acted sooner rather than later. As for the hightened security at ariports......personally I think it is a crock, the security measures that were in place worked so why tighten up more? But I guess its better safe than sorry and have another cell that they didn't know about get through.

Yes, I can't wait until we hear this is another instance of some "kids" talking tough on the internet and at their mosque in an effort to get attention and seem like they're big wheels. Too much of that crap going on.

When are people going to learn that "terrorism" wins everytime we see over-reaction. That's what the game is all about. They fart and we evacuate the neighborhood, afraid it was a poison gas attack. Over-reaction can be worse than no reaction at times. In this particular instance, no reaction would likely have been better. It is begining to sound like there was no viable threat and that it was a hysterical over-reaction. Oh, and election time is right around the corner! What a coincidence!!!

[jolinar of malkshor]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Well, according to the article linked:In contrast to previous reports, one senior British official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

The thing is tickets can be purchased mere hours before the flight. Yes, that alone might raise some suspicion, but it happens ALL the time. People who miss certain flights or traveling on last minute notice or emergency. As for Passports. It could be quite possible that they didn't have British passports or others for that matter, but it is also quite possible that they may have planned on using altered, forged or counterft passports from some other source on the day of their departure.

Doesn't this put the case against some of the perpetrators into doubt?

I don't think this puts anything into doubt.

I hope they have additional evidence against them, but by acting before any tickets had even been purchased won't that mean that, at best, they will only be charged with much lesser crimes?

Do you know what the criminal statutes are in the UK and the punishments. There maybe no distinction between planning and carrying out terrorist attacks. So it might not make that much of a difference. As for waiting till they purchased tickets.......what if you were the person that was to fly with them. Do you think the authorities should wait until the brink or stop it before any possibility of injury.

If people continue giving up their rights, then how much liberty is going to be left to protect?

I agree with you 100%. By implementing such restrictions, I believe the Terrorists are achieving thier goals.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

So you're saying that this was going on for months and a very hot lead, yet DHS didn't notify anyone until hours after Heathrow had been shut down. Hate to break it to you, but that ain't SOP.



Yup, they may have been under servallance [sic] for some time, but that doesn't make them guilty of anything or breaking any laws. Based on our legal systems there has to be something other than a nasty e-mail or message board posting that gives the government the right to throw you in the klink. Well, that was before the USA PATRIOT act. I didn't realize that was in law over in Britian as well.



That was the impression the news had given us. The information released was they had stopped people trying to get on planes and they were even afraid some had indeed got on planes and were headed to America. That information was from the British and United States governments.



How about act when they have evidence of something that will stand up in court?



Yes, I can't wait until we hear this is another instance of some "kids" talking tough on the internet and at their mosque in an effort to get attention and seem like they're big wheels. Too much of that crap going on.

When are people going to learn that "terrorism" wins everytime we see over-reaction. That's what the game is all about. They fart and we evacuate the neighborhood, afraid it was a poison gas attack. Over-reaction can be worse than no reaction at times. In this particular instance, no reaction would likely have been better. It is begining to sound like there was no viable threat and that it was a hysterical over-reaction. Oh, and election time is right around the corner! What a coincidence!!!

Lanny............You have no idea what kind of evidence they have. No one does other than the immediate detectives and if you want to listen to these news reports then your a bigot because all you do is preach about how the media misleads the population for the purpose of the government.

Just so you know, this happened in the UK. Do you know there laws??? Not sure why your bringing up the patriot act (which I think is a pile of rubish). You, along with many other people seemed to have the right to jump to all these conclusions before there is really any substancial evidence available. I for one would rather them be safe then sorry.

As far as your concerned they can't win. They act to soon, then they are facist officials violating their rights. They wait to long and they are part of the plot. Boggles my mind.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

NBC nightly news last night is saying now that none of the terrorists had bought plane tickets. Lots didn't have passports. There is no indication that they've tested the liquid explosives anywhere. Nor is there indication that they've actually purchased any of the ingredients.

Can I poke holes in this?

No plane tickets? They can be bought at the airport minutes before the plane leaves. Not a real indication of anything, really. They're blowing themselves up, what does money matter?

Didn't have passports? Real ones or fake ones? Terrorists / etc have been known to have fake ones, or have them made pretty quickly. For legit passports, there is a delay. For fake ones? It's probably not anywhere near as long.

Tested the liquid explosives? I read something (let's see if I can dig it up) that the same technology has been used by suicide bombers, the British Shoe Bomber, and elsewhere for quite some time. It's not like this is a new thing.

Haven't purchased ingredients? Sure.. but have they sourced where to get them? How do you know they haven't planned to pick them up on the way to the airport?


Being devil's advocate is fun!

Really, there may not have been a real immediate threat. It may have even been a few more weeks or months before they planned to do anything. On the other hand, there may have been a real immediate plan just waiting for the go-ahead.

Fact is: There was a threat, and it was thwarted. Heavy-handidly, yes, but it was thwarted none-the-less.

[underGRADFlame]

Its a good thing McGuyver wasn't a terrorist, cause dude coulda brought down a plane with a paper clip, a bottle of water, and a pocket calculater.

[Indi]

I was watching one of those disaster shows on the history channel the other day, and it was showing something about a terrorist that did just that....he built a bomb in the bathroom using a water bottle and a timing device.....put it under his seat on an Philippine Air 747, and then deplaned on a stopover....the poor japanese guy that got that seat was blown in half.....the plane didnt come apart, but apparently it was darn close....so this type of threat has already happened.
Also, I remember a couple of days ago on the news that they had found the final recordings from 2 of the 'supposed' terrorists...you know the ones where they state thier last wishes, and praise allah and all that good stuff...they only make these tapes when the end is very near. This was a plot that was going to happen, and very soon.
Considering I have to fly to/from work every month, it scares the heck out of me.....

[Bingo]

They made the arrests because that's there job.
They told the public because that was a request out of 911.

Governments have done a great job in foiling the above plan, a Jersey issue, the Canadian arrests, and a few others in the past few years, and now people blame them for scaring us?

Tough crowd.

And this one is a conspiracy to scare so broad that it involves not only the US, but Britain and Pakistan?

I think the anti-government bent on this site is seriously spiralling out of control.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

So you're saying that this was going on for months and a very hot lead, yet DHS didn't notify anyone until hours after Heathrow had been shut down. Hate to break it to you, but that ain't SOP.

You're assuming DHS knew about it. Whatever I read (or maybe heard on QR77) stated that DHS wasn't informed about it until after the arrests were made, so not to give any clues that the British were onto them.

Still looking for what I read...

That was the impression the news had given us. The information released was they had stopped people trying to get on planes and they were even afraid some had indeed got on planes and were headed to America. That information was from the British and United States governments.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html

"An undercover British agent infiltrated the group, "

"The men had not bought plane tickets, the officials said, but they were in the process of perusing the Internet to find flights to various cities that had similar departure times."

"Among those arrested were a Muslim charity worker and a Heathrow Airport employee with an all-area access pass, according to Britain's Channel 4.

"The suspects were planning to stage a test run within a couple of days, said a U.S. intelligence official."

"Information gathered after recent arrests in Pakistan convinced British investigators they had to act urgently to stop the plot, sources said."

etc...