Nine people convicted in honour killing

[jolinar of malkshor]

Let me guess. These people were Islamic.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Let me guess. These people were Islamic.

I don't think that kind of thing is a purely Islamic venture . . . . .

Cowperson

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I don't think that kind of thing is a purely Islamic venture . . . . .

Cowperson

Riiigggghhhhhttt.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Riiigggghhhhhttt.

Since its fairly straight-forward history, we can chance using Wikpedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Cowperson

[jolinar of malkshor]

we are talking about society today, not ancient Babylonia

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

we are talking about society today, not ancient Babylonia

Congratulations on proving you can read the first sentence in a link.

Sikh's aren't Muslims.

Brazilians aren't generally Muslims.

As two examples.

It's more likely to be a Muslim thing but not exclusive to Muslims . . . . as I stated and demonstrated.

Cowperson

[Resolute 14]

Jolinar has a point. The overwhelming majority of these killings in the modern day are committed by Muslims. Most other religions/cultures have evolved past this.

[jolinar of malkshor]

You know dang rights what I was talking about. Nothing is exclusive to anything or any culture. Just as you stated that it's more likely to be muslim but you had to go and try and down play it or be Mr. "lets argue because I like to argue even though I know what he is saying."

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You know dang rights what I was talking about. Nothing is exclusive to anything or any culture. Just as you stated that it's more likely to be muslim but you had to go and try and down play it or be Mr. "lets argue because I like to argue even though I know what he is saying."

I see your position is comically evolving, from questioning a remark that other cultures might participate in the practice to saying that's what you meant all along.

Cowperson

[Cube Inmate]

Hmmm... you don't think it's a valid guess considering her *Pakistani* family didn't approve? Presumably that's the same Pakistan that's 97% Muslim?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I see your position is comically evolving, from questioning a remark that other cultures might participate in the practice to saying that's what you meant all along.

Cowperson

I understand your point, but such things have been largely pin-pointed on Muslims because they seem to dominate the news so much.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by fotze

Oh ya just in case anyone is planning on jihading or even fatwaing me, I was kidding with my comment to Cowperson.

Wasn't that honor killing in BC a while back from a sikh family?

Yeah, the dad stabbed his daughter an inane amount of times for dating a white man. I think he was Indian, not Muslim, though.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Azure

I understand your point, but such things have been largely pin-pointed on Muslims because they seem to dominate the news so much.

No one has said the bulk of such killings aren't Muslim related.

I merely pointed out its not an exclusive Muslim practice.

As an example, from a 2003 BBC story:

Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/3149030.stm

A Sikh example:

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...&id=1400142004

And we have to be careful at defining the practice too closely:


In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."
Complicity by other women in the family and the community strengthens the concept of women as property and the perception that violence against family members is a family and not a judicial issue.
"Females in the family—mothers, mothers-in-law, sisters, and cousins—frequently support the attacks. It's a community mentality," said Zaynab Nawaz, a program assistant for women's human rights at Amnesty International.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...orkilling.html

Cowperson

[jolinar of malkshor]

So much sarcasim flying around. the following article gives you a little sample of how prevailent this is. This is just a quote from the article.

"In 2000, the United Nations estimated that around 5,000 girls and women in at least 14 countries, among them Pakistan, Jordan and Turkey, were killed yearly because their families felt they brought dishonor on them."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1244406,00.html

Seeing since Turkey is 99% Muslim, Pakistan is 97% Muslim, Jordan is 92% muslim I would tend to think that maybe this is mostly an Islamic thing.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

So much sarcasim flying around. the following article gives you a little sample of how prevailent this is. This is just a quote from the article.

"In 2000, the United Nations estimated that around 5,000 girls and women in at least 14 countries, among them Pakistan, Jordan and Turkey, were killed yearly because their families felt they brought dishonor on them."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1244406,00.html

Seeing since Turkey is 99% Muslim, Pakistan is 97% Muslim, Jordan is 92% muslim I would tend to think that maybe this is mostly an Islamic thing.

Maybe you should read my previous post . . . . .

Cowperson

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Maybe you should read my previous post . . . . .

Cowperson

I was working on mine before your post showed up.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I think he was Indian, not Muslim, though.

That's kind of a goofy statement. Nationality is not the same thing as Muslim.

Granted the majority of people in India are Hindus, but there's nothing to say that the dude wasn't a Muslim (is that even the correct spelling?).

Besides, the dude was Pakistani (it says it clearly in the article), a country which is mostly Muslim.

[pope04]

Originally Posted by fotze

Wasn't that honor killing in BC a while back from a sikh family?

Yes, I believe in Vernon, British Columbia.

Edited for clarity.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I remember on September 13th, 2001 when a gas station owner in the Greater Phoenix area was murdered.

I think he looked Muslim and terrorists are mostly Muslim so....

What a thread.

[MatsNaslund]

Hi guys, I'd like to offer my 2 cents and just address a few things which either have been incorrectly stated or left as unknowns.

1. Wiki is not exactly something to hold up as the word of god. It can be edited by anyone for any purpose.

2. Pakistan is a state which is officially Islamic. Sharia law is enshrined into its constitution. Meaning if you are even accused of anything islamic its like an automatic sentence. 97% of the population is Islamic. The minorities that do exist are mainly christians & the ahmadiya sect of Islam and they are regularly discriminated against.

3. Honour killings in this day and age are a not something out of the ordinary in Pakistan. In Pakistan there is a tradition to marry amongst first cousins and most of these marriages are arranged so if the girl marries someone else it kind of screws things up. The family loses face amongst the community if they don't do something about it. That's why they do these killings. In Pakistan, honour killings never ever land anyone in jail even if the families are convicted. Usually they get off by paying a fine. This story about 9 getting convicted is nothing. There was a story a few years ago that a boy maybe 13-14 was seen walking with a married woman of a rich background. It was alleged that they had an affair but nothing was ever proven. As punishment a court gave out an order that the kid's sister be gang raped in the streets by members of the rich woman's family. The shocking part was that they actually carried out the order.

4. Sikhism is the world's 5th largest religion. http://www.sikhs.org/religion.htm

Honour killings amongst Sikhs (a separate religion altogether from both Hinduism and Islam), Christians, Hindus and others have actually gone down and the religions themselves are against such killings. Whatever happens like the case in BC is an isolated case and not an everyday problem and yes the guy was a Sikh. This is an isolated case. There are many Sikhs (especially in BC) of both genders who have married into whites and others. It comes down to personal choice and at least those Sikhs whose families have been here a few generations have accepted that.

5. Talking about Dowry and Caste system is like comparing apples and oranges when talking about the honour system. They are topics onto themselves. Caste and Dowry are ancient Hindu traditions that have died down in modern times as compared to how much of a big deal they used to be in the past and it is mostly a problem amongst Hindus, but Sikhs and Muslims from the Indian subcontinent do follow caste and dowry to a degree (when it comes to arranging marriages). Again they are smaller issues then honour killings.

6. Muslims are not all brown-skinned. There are white Muslims too. The Shoe-bomber Richard Reid is one example. There are chinese muslims, Black Muslims (Nation of Islam & recruits from US jails), South Asian Muslims, Turkish, Arab and Persian Muslims and white Muslims. Muslim is a religion and not confined to any 1 race. On the flip side not all Arabs are Muslim. Many Arabs (especially from Lebanon and Iraq) are in fact Christians. Looking at them you can't tell which is Muslim and which isn't.

7. Despite Muslims having more population in Canada then Sikhs they only have 1 MP to show for it and he only recently got elected. Sikhs are well represented in the political system in Canada. Former BC Premier and Former Federal Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh, Former Federal Fisheries, Revenue, Natural Resources Minister Herb Dhaliwal, Former Alberta ND leader Raj Pannu as well as 8 MP's in Paul Martin's government and I believe 6 MPs now that are Sikhs. BC's Attorney General is Wally Oppal (a former BC Supreme Court Judge). He is a well known Sikh. Emmanual Sandhu is 1/2 Sikh (Sandhu is a common Sikh surname). Monica Deol (who used to be on MuchMusic years ago) is a Sikh too as are several people who work at CTV and CBC as announcers. One of the richest Sikhs in Canada is Asa Johal, who has won the Order of British Columbia award in the past.:

http://www.protocol.gov.bc.ca/protoc...991_AJohal.htm

8. Sikhs have been in Canada over 100 years. The oldest Sikh temple in Canada is located in Vancouver on Ross Street and was established in 1908. Muslims in large part have only just begun immigrating in large numbers to Canada.

9. One can be Muslim and Indian at the same time. Indian is nationality. Muslim is religion. Most Indians are hindu but over 120 million indians are Muslim too. 2% of Indians are SIkh and 2.5% of Indians are Christians. India's PM at the moment is a Sikh, its President is a Muslim and an Italian Christian is the leader of its largest political party which is in power.

10. That gas station owner killed was actually a Sikh and not a Muslim. Many Sikhs got killed in the post-911 aftermath because Americans didn't know the the difference between the 2. There is only 1 group of Muslims that wears turbans and very few of them exist in the US of A and they are Afghans. Sikhs exist all over the US in small numbers except in NY and California where they have sizeable populations. Sikhs on the otherhand are required to wear a turban if they are practicing. The Afghan and Sikh turban types are different as well. But how are you supposed to tell that to an ignorant American full of rage who would rather kill a Sikh for 9-11 then a Saudi Arabian. All of 2 or 3 of the bombers were Saudi Arabian (just like Bin Laden). As I have mentioned before Sikhism and Islam are 2 separate religions with very little in common. Radical Islam has even less in common with Sikhism. As for the teachings of the 2 religions here are the similarities & differences:

http://www.sikhs.org/relig_m.htm