I'm just glad that online comments weren't enabled for this. It's really disgusting that this was even put up. Kudos to the politicians who jumped all over them for it.
Under “no” the site says “women should be able to dress, drink and walk as they choose without fear of being blamed.”
Under “yes,” the poll says “if women drink too much, dress too little or walk in harms way, they put themselves at risk.”
In fact, both of those statements are true. In a perfect world, what a women drinks or wears and where she goes would not increase the likelihood that she gets victimized. In the real world, those are risk factors that she controls.
If I go walking down a dark alley in a sketchy part of night, I'm not literally asking to get mugged, nor is it my fault if I do, but I certainly made my odds worse by doing what I did.
Pretending that these risk factors don't exist is actually harmful to society. People need to know about the risks they're taking.
I'm just glad that online comments weren't enabled for this. It's really disgusting that this was even put up. Kudos to the politicians who jumped all over them for it.
In fact, both of those statements are true. In a perfect world, what a women drinks or wears and where she goes would not increase the likelihood that she gets victimized. In the real world, those are risk factors that she controls.
If I go walking down a dark alley in a sketchy part of night, I'm not literally asking to get mugged, nor is it my fault if I do, but I certainly made my odds worse by doing what I did.
Pretending that these risk factors don't exist is actually harmful to society. People need to know about the risks they're taking.
You seem very sure of this, so I'm sure you must have studies to back up the correlation between what someone wears and their likelihood of being raped. Could I please see them?
In fact, both of those statements are true. In a perfect world, what a women drinks or wears and where she goes would not increase the likelihood that she gets victimized. In the real world, those are risk factors that she controls.
If I go walking down a dark alley in a sketchy part of night, I'm not literally asking to get mugged, nor is it my fault if I do, but I certainly made my odds worse by doing what I did.
Pretending that these risk factors don't exist is actually harmful to society. People need to know about the risks they're taking.
NSFW!
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to jayswin For This Useful Post:
You seem very sure of this, so I'm sure you must have studies to back up the correlation between what someone wears and their likelihood of being raped. Could I please see them?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9519576
"The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (b) provocative dress, and (c) alcohol use."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9519576
"The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (b) provocative dress, and (c) alcohol use."
Did you actually read the entire study? The methodology is incredibly questionable.
we cannot be certain that the variables discriminating between the nonvictim and victim groups were behaviors antecedent to victimization or if they were behaviors occurring after a victimization, perhaps even as a result of the victimization.
Have you considered that maybe the reason that women who dress provocatively, drink, etc. are more susceptible to rape is because these are largely social actions that logistically expose them to more potential rapists?
Did you actually read the entire study? The methodology is incredibly questionable.
I didn't read the whole study, the links I found had paywalls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Have you considered that maybe the reason that women who dress provocatively, drink, etc. are more susceptible to rape is because these are largely social actions that logistically expose them to more potential rapists?
Sure. But that would still make those things risk factors.
Ultimately I'm not an expert on the risk factors nor would I claim to be. But what I vehemently disagree with is the notion that studying, advertising risk factors and/or even advising people to avoid risks makes one a rape apologist, morally reprehensible, or a bad person. In attempting to shame or censor those people you and others like you are actually making the world more dangerous for potential victims.
Would you not tell children to look both ways before crossing the street?
I didn't read the whole study, the links I found had paywalls.
Sure. But that would still make those things risk factors.
So your suggestion then is for women to just not do things that puts them in proximity to rapists? I guess if black people would do a better job of covering up their blackness, maybe they wouldn't have to deal with so much racism, right?
Quote:
Ultimately I'm not an expert on the risk factors nor would I claim to be. But what I vehemently disagree with is the notion that studying, advertising risk factors and/or even advising people to avoid risks makes one a rape apologist, morally reprehensible, or a bad person. In attempting to shame or censor those people you and others like you are actually making the world more dangerous for potential victims.
Except you need to prove that these things are actually significant risk factors if you're going to say it's a woman's responsibility not to be raped. Furthermore, why is the onus on women to adjust their behaviour so that men won't rape them? Why are we not addressing the cultural attitudes that make men thing rape is acceptable (such as victim-blaming).
If every single woman started dressing in modest clothing do you think rape rates would actually go down? What about if all women gave up drinking? Do you realize what a myopic, patriarchal, and ethnocentric viewpoint that is?
Quote:
Would you not tell children to look both ways before crossing the street?
Ridiculous analogy. Children aren't expected to behave differently than anyone else when crossing the street. We also don't have an epidemic of people trying to run over kids.
I think there is something to be said for educating women on the tactics of manipulation and coercion employed by rapists vs. telling them why it's their fault they were raped.
So your suggestion then is for women to just not do things that puts them in proximity to rapists? I guess if black people would do a better job of covering up their blackness, maybe they wouldn't have to deal with so much racism, right?
That's not my suggestion. What I'm saying is that it's a fact that risk factors exist. Maybe the benefit of "doing things that put them in proximity to rapists" is worth the risk. It's up to the individual to decide that, and they can't do it if nobody gives them the facts.
I wouldn't recommend that black people visit KKK rallies, but maybe that's just me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Except you need to prove that these things are actually significant risk factors if you're going to say it's a woman's responsibility not to be raped. Furthermore, why is the onus on women to adjust their behaviour so that men won't rape them? Why are we not addressing the cultural attitudes that make men thing rape is acceptable (such as victim-blaming).
Well, alcohol in particular is well established as a risk factor, but I'm not saying that it's a woman's responsibility to not be raped. But she does have control over some of the risk factors. It's not something that she has to do, but something that she can do. It's not her fault that she got raped if she doesn't mitigate her risk factors, but she did contribute to the likelihood of it happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Why are we not addressing the cultural attitudes that make men thing rape is acceptable (such as victim-blaming).
False dichotomy. Do both. Education around risk factors isn't victim-blaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
If every single woman started dressing in modest clothing do you think rape rates would actually go down? What about if all women gave up drinking?
I would guess that they would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Do you realize what a myopic, patriarchal, and ethnocentric viewpoint that is?
I honestly have no clue how you lept to this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Ridiculous analogy. Children aren't expected to behave differently than anyone else when crossing the street. We also don't have an epidemic of people trying to run over kids.
Does it matter if the threat is actively hostile? As a pedestrian you look for cars to mitigate the risk of getting hit (even though if you do, it's typically the driver's fault).
For another analogy, assuming that homes with burglar alarms get robbed less. It's good advice to get an alarm. It's not your fault if don't have one and get robbed, but you increased your odds. There, now it's an actively hostile threat. Nothing changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
I think there is something to be said for educating women on the tactics of manipulation and coercion employed by rapists vs. telling them why it's their fault they were raped.
There's lots of things we can do. What you're doing in this thread is counter-productive.
That's not my suggestion. What I'm saying is that it's a fact that risk factors exist. Maybe the benefit of "doing things that put them in proximity to rapists" is worth the risk. It's up to the individual to decide that, and they can't do it if nobody gives them the facts.
I wouldn't recommend that black people visit KKK rallies, but maybe that's just me.
If going out on Saturday is considered as risky for a woman as a black person attending a KKK party, what does that say about us as a society?
Quote:
Well, alcohol in particular is well established as a risk factor, but I'm not saying that it's a woman's responsibility to not be raped. But she does have control over some of the risk factors.
I don't think it's as statistically significant a factor as you do.
We found no evidence that that women who are more outgoing are more likely to be raped, this is completely inaccurate, we found no difference whatsoever. The alcohol thing is also completely wrong: if anything, we found that men reported they were willing to go further with women who are completely sober.
Quote:
It's not something that she has to do, but something that she can do. It's not her fault that she got raped if she doesn't mitigate her risk factors, but she did contribute to the likelihood of it happening.
Quote:
I would guess that they would.
So baseless speculation then?
Quote:
We have found at the minute that people will go slightly further with women who are provocatively dressed, but this result is not statistically significant. Basically you can’t say that’s an effect, it could easily be the play of chance. I told the journalist it isn’t one of our main findings, you can’t say that. It’s not significant, which is why we’re not reporting it in our main analysis.
Dude, this is victim-blaming plain and simple. Do Sikhs contribute to the racism against them by wearing traditional cultural attire? What exactly should women wear to keep men from raping them?
Quote:
I honestly have no clue how you lept to this point.
See flameswin's picture.
Quote:
Does it matter if the threat is actively hostile? As a pedestrian you look for cars to mitigate the risk of getting hit (even though if you do, it's typically the driver's fault).
For another analogy, assuming that homes with burglar alarms get robbed less. It's good advice to get an alarm. It's not your fault if don't have one and get robbed, but you increased your odds. There, now it's an actively hostile threat. Nothing changes.
Again, prove the mitigation. With regards to the original study you posted there's this:
Quote:
What this correlation actually translates into is that 19% of the variability between being a victim or nonvictim of sexual violence is linearly related to the grouping of these three variables. In other terms, one could reasonably say that 81% of the variability between victims and nonvictims cannot be explained by number of lifetime sexual partners, provocativeness of dress, and greater substance use.
Actually that is better analogy because rape, like burglary is a crime of opportunity, which proves that the provocative attire thing is a load of crap.
Quote:
There's lots of things we can do. What you're doing in this thread is counter-productive.
Not really. I'm saying what you're doing does more than harm the good because too many people use it as an excuse not to get involved in advocating for broader societal changes. If men are the problem then why are women the ones who have to adjust their behaviour?
630 CHED poll asks if rape victims are to blame, 35% prove people are still awful
