Gary Mar wants private health care in Alberta

[SebC]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...270/story.html

“The thickness of your wallet should not govern your access to medically necessary health services,... but that does not mean there aren’t people who are willing to pay for services themselves,” Mar said Tuesday.


“I don’t want to stand in the way between somebody who is willing to do that and a health service they feel that they need.”

The question is: Is the money you save by having the wealthy take themselves out of the system enough to offset the increased costs the public system will incur competing for reasources with the private system? I think the US experience shows that it isn't.

[Dion]

There's nothing stopping a person from crossing the border into the States to get the quicker treatment he/she wants.

[vanisleflamesfan]

What are the chances that this thread does not devolve into a 100 page shouting match?

[Hemi-Cuda]

the minute you start making doctors choose between the private and public sector is the minute you undermine what universal healthcare is all about. a private system competing with the public would make wait times even worse for those who aren't wealthy enough to afford private care, and pretty soon people would just start abandoning it entirely and paying heavy debt out of pocket just to get the care they need right away

[Option84]

Get more doctors! Subsidize their education heavily, and commit them to a set number of years practice in Canada if they choose to use subsidies. Problem solved. Imo a major reason docs run south is just so they can pay back the heavy debt load from school.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Option84

Get more doctors! Subsidize their education heavily, and commit them to a set number of years practice in Canada if they choose to use subsidies. Problem solved. Imo a major reason docs run south is just so they can pay back the heavy debt load from school.

Med school is already heavily subsidized. Perhaps that should come with strings attached (or rather, optional strings for optional subsidies)? Of course, then you'd probably have to do that with a whole bunch of other programs too and it would be a huge can of worms.

[GGG]

I think that we should ignore the US results when looking at the possible outcomes of two tier health care. It is much more honest to look at the European nations results as the US system has been corrupted by insurance and litigation

We are perhaps the only country outside of Cuba and venezala that have only private care so one must look very carefully at if our system is getting the desired results.

Also right now we lose Doctors and nurses to the US to their private system and lose GDP to the US when patients go over for care. This two tier system does not make sense.

Finally when Medicare was started it was not meant to replace the private system. doctors were given the option of being entirely private or entirely public. This should still be allowed to happen. The only thing that would concern me is if doctors were allowed to work in both systems. This would lead to doctors using the public system to augment slow days which would hurt the public system.

we also already have. Two tier care. dental, diagnostics, eye care, cosmetic and many other services are already in the private sector. why not pus the line a little further to take pressure of the public system.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Option84

Get more doctors! Subsidize their education heavily, and commit them to a set number of years practice in Canada if they choose to use subsidies. Problem solved. Imo a major reason docs run south is just so they can pay back the heavy debt load from school.

It doesn't solve the fact that doctors and specialists can make more money in the private sector. No government dictating how much they can earn per patient visit. They can write thier own cheque in the USA.

[Option84]

Originally Posted by SebC

Med school is already heavily subsidized. Perhaps that should come with strings attached? Of course, then you'd probably have to do that with a whole bunch of other programs too and it would be a huge can of worms.

Well I meant subsidized as in free. Too bad our number crunching geniuses in Ottawa would never figure out a way to make this feasible. I would imagine the hit on the wallet would be trivial.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

Med school is already heavily subsidized. Perhaps that should come with strings attached (or rather, optional strings for optional subsidies)? Of course, then you'd probably have to do that with a whole bunch of other programs too and it would be a huge can of worms.

It costs something like 250k a year to send a student to med school. Other programs are more like 20k a year. So it would seem reasonable to place some restrictions. A better way to do it would be to increase tution to 100k per year but offer forgivable loans or Tex credits for staying for the first 5 years.

Saskatchewan already does this to a lesser degree offering 4k tax credits each year for the first 4 years if you stay in Saskatchewan.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Option84

Well I meant subsidized as in free. Too bad our number crunching geniuses in Ottawa would never figure out a way to make this feasible. I would imagine the hit on the wallet would be trivial.

You would have to get those students to sign an agreement to never leave the public sector.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

why not put the line a little further to take pressure of the public system.

Would it actually take pressure off the public system though, or would it add more?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

Saskatchewan already does this to a lesser degree offering 4k tax credits each year for the first 4 years if you stay in Saskatchewan.

I believe Alberta offers something extra to those who take certain undesirable rural positions, could be wrong though.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Option84

Get more doctors! Subsidize their education heavily, and commit them to a set number of years practice in Canada if they choose to use subsidies. Problem solved. Imo a major reason docs run south is just so they can pay back the heavy debt load from school.

I have to agree. I know a few doctors; and they all graduated with 6 figures worth of student loans. While doing their residency they all talked about being a small town doctor somewhere; then reality set in and they went where the dollars were.

Something simple like making the student loans disappear if they spend 10 years practicing in the same province where they graduated would solve that. Have some sort of interest relief if they only spend 5 years; basically giving them an out if they need it. That way you don't have people refusing because they aren't sure if they want to spend 10 years in one place.

That all being said- I would gladly pay $50 per visit to not have to wait more than 30 minutes in a walk-in or urgent care waiting room.

[CaptainCrunch]

While the number of doctors is important, the reason why the health care system in place is failing is because of the leaches that have attached themselves to the health care system and are sucking it dry.

We're spending the money in an incredibly inefficient matter, we have too many bureaucrats that prevent money from being re-invested into the system. We have unions attached to the system like Vampires.

We have people completely abusing the system.

If you want to fix the system the first thing you do is cut a huge gash through the non medical personal.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by fotze

How about a nice healthy tax on the proposed private care, that goes to the public?

Thats not a terrible idea, but until you fix the spending problems and inefficiencies in the current system just throwing money at it won't fix a thing.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

We have people completely abusing the system.

I believe this is true, but not for the same reasons. One thing that needs to be reduced is overtime hours... some employees of the health system make an obscene amount of money through overtime.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

While the number of doctors is important, the reason why the health care system in place is failing is because of the leaches that have attached themselves to the health care system and are sucking it dry.

We're spending the money in an incredibly inefficient matter, we have too many bureaucrats that prevent money from being re-invested into the system. We have unions attached to the system like Vampires.

We have people completely abusing the system.

If you want to fix the system the first thing you do is cut a huge gash through the non medical personal.

doctors still use leaches in Alberta, ye gods!!

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by Option84

Get more doctors! Subsidize their education heavily, and commit them to a set number of years practice in Canada if they choose to use subsidies. Problem solved. Imo a major reason docs run south is just so they can pay back the heavy debt load from school.

to the best of my knowledge, there is now a net influx of physicians into Canada. MDs going to the USA en masse to practice is a thing of the past.

obviously, there are still concerns in how the health care budget is managed and the lack of doctors. however, based on studies I've come across and talks I've attended, one of the biggest problems is the types of doctors we're training in Canada. healthcare outcomes improve and costs decrease with an increased proportion of primary care providers. unfortunately, only 30-35% of graduates from medical schools go into primary care (this problem is even worse in the states, hence, worse outcomes/higher costs). based on what i understand, the goal should be approximately 50%. with that, a lot of your problems are fixed...more family docs, shorter ER wait times, shorter specialist wait times as preventable/easily treated conditions are managed by primary care providers, decrease in the number of hospital admissions, etc.

the trick is convincing medical students to become primary care providers as opposed to the less "glamorous" and better paying specialties.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

the trick is convincing medical students to become primary care providers as opposed to the less "glamorous" and better paying specialties.

I'd suggest this means we need to pay GPs more, or specialists less, to fix the market imbalance that stems from fixed prices.