Israel declares war on Hamas

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

After the short discussion about naming issues, Bagor kind of hits the nail on the head by identifying the opposing violent sides as : Hamas and Israel. If you are going to identify one group as a specific political entity, you have to do the same to the other to avoid confusion. What are Netanyahu's party called? Likud. Very simple, Hamas vs Likud.

That way if you want to talk about Palestinians and Israel, you know it's the people as a whole.

Also, my continuing two cents, Isreal wants to see the elimination of Gaza, so I think the location goes away, and Gazans are relocated to border an Islamic nation. So saying 'elimination of all Palastinians' isn't really possible anyway.

Israel isn't trying to 'eliminate' Palestinians. Israel is fighting a war against numerous nations and groups, including Hamas, the government who attacked Israel. It has been terrible how the international community ignored Israel and Gaza for so many years and basically pointed a finger at Israel the entire time before, and after October 7.

If Israel did want to get rid of Gaza, it is because of the threat Gaza poses on Israeli citizens, and until the international community steps in to help, Israel is forced into this terrible situation.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Just stop, man. Bill is one of the most fair and least trollish posters on the board. And that’s as someone who has been in agreement and had spirited disagreements with him.

He didn’t make anything up, and he’s not trolling. There’s a reason you’re on an island here. Nobody buys any of what you’re selling. The sooner you accept that you throwing accusations of trolling, hate, and anti-semitism around has become a joke, the sooner you can put that stuff aside and engage in discussion like you pretend to do. You can actually live it. You’ll enjoy it, I promise.

LOL, seriously? I am definitely not on an island. People are sick of the violence, but they are also sick of the hypocritical left.

Anti-semitism is a massive issue right now, except you are blind to it.

I also do engage in debate and conversation, yet you dance around issues non stop. Post an argument and I respond (as my posts show).

You have called me every name in the book, for years. You asked me to quote what you said and I did.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel isn't trying to 'eliminate' Palestinians. Israel is fighting a war against numerous nations and groups, including Hamas, the government who attacked Israel. It has been terrible how the international community ignored Israel and Gaza for so many years and basically pointed a finger at Israel the entire time before, and after October 7.

If Israel did want to get rid of Gaza, it is because of the threat Gaza poses on Israeli citizens, and until the international community steps in to help, Israel is forced into this terrible situation.

The international community is not going to step in to relocate Gaza. That it why Israel is alone.

That the are not trying to eliminate Palestinians is exactly what I said. A big body count is a historical fact of relocation, which is happening.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

The international community is not going to step in to relocate Gaza. That it why Israel is alone.

That the are not trying to eliminate Palestinians is exactly what I said. A big body count is a historical fact of relocation, which is happening.

That isn't what is happening in this case. The area is being used by the Gaza military, which is why it is being attacked by Israel. If Hamas surrenders, the international community could have a chance to build.

If they don't surrender, then you are probably correct. But like you said, that is what the consequences are in war. It doesn't really depend on ratios.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If they don't surrender, then you are probably correct.

That's the problem Terrorists don't surrender. They aren't bound by the will of the people, nor do they respect it.

These same lessons have been learned with the Taliban and ISIS. It becomes a never ending meat grinder until they run out of resources. Unfortunately for all of us, Hamas has a lot of foreign powers happy to keep providing resources, and they show no signs of stopping.

[Nage Waza]

That has been the problem for Gaza for 20 years with much of the international community feeding kindling to support Hamas. So not only does Hamas have to go, a massive program has to de radicalize the population.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

That has been the problem for Gaza for 20 years with much of the international community feeding kindling to support Hamas. So not only does Hamas have to go, a massive program has to de radicalize the population.

Which is easily achieved by decimating the families of young people, who will in no way grow up with hatred in their hearts for the needless losses inflicted on them by Israel. Flawless plan.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Which is easily achieved by decimating the families of young people, who will in no way grow up with hatred in their hearts for the needless losses inflicted on them by Israel. Flawless plan.

You have made several posts blaming Israel for October 7. That isn’t just a disgusting thing to say, it is false. Israel left Gaza 20 years ago and Palestinians have been in charge independently from Israel from that point on. What did they accomplish in that time? Bunkers and tunnels under civilian infrastructure with arms buildup to attack Israel, rape and murder innocent people and 20 years of rocket attacks. What has Israel done? Continued as a nation and provided for all of its people, including Muslims and Jews.

There will never be a hope for Palestinians as long as your mindset continues. Palestinians need to choose a better future for themselves and actually look at Israel as part of their way out of this mess. Iran and Hamas is not the way.

If you you think you have a better idea on what Israel should be doing, write about it.

[Fuzz]

Your such a ####ing bag of bull####. I've never blamed Israel for Oct 7th, that's probably you projecting your own subconscious feelings. What I've repeatedly said is that killing innocent people to wipe out terrorists just creates more terrorists. My advice is to stop killing innocent people, and stop stealing their land.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Palestinians need to choose a better future for themselves and actually look at Israel as part of their way out of this mess. Iran and Hamas is not the way.

You're treating Palestinians like a homogenous group. Which makes sense, you tend to think in these terms as criticizing a subset of Israelis always equates to antisemitism for you.

There is a subset of Palestinians that want nothing more than peace.

How to achieve that peace is obviously extremely difficult when there are a bunch of terrorists among them. Putting a wall up and having security check points may help temporarily with the security issues, but the terrorists will always be plotting and stockpiling for their next attack.

Palestinian kids are growing up being told about Israelis by people that hate them and inheriting that hate. What fixes these problems is humanizing the other side. Palestinian kids need to be playing with Israeli kids and making friends that causes them to question the narratives they hear that all Israelis are evil.

How to do these things without risking security is hard. The Irish did it by putting gates in the peace walls and opening them during the day so the kids could use playgrounds on each side, or even attend school together in some cases.

What doesn't work is what is happening in areas that have mixed population, such as the West Bank. Having the military, police and community leaders allow the Settlers to harass and displace Palestinians with no repercussions is going backwards and creating more Palestinians that grow up hating Israelis based on their first hand experience.

Yes the Palestinians need to sort themselves out, but it's time for people like yourself to stop excusing the actions of the subset of Israelis that are actively making this problem worse.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You have made several posts blaming Israel for October 7. That isn’t just a disgusting thing to say, it is false. Israel left Gaza 20 years ago and Palestinians have been in charge independently from Israel from that point on. What did they accomplish in that time? Bunkers and tunnels under civilian infrastructure with arms buildup to attack Israel, rape and murder innocent people and 20 years of rocket attacks. What has Israel done? Continued as a nation and provided for all of its people, including Muslims and Jews.

There will never be a hope for Palestinians as long as your mindset continues. Palestinians need to choose a better future for themselves and actually look at Israel as part of their way out of this mess. Iran and Hamas is not the way.

If you you think you have a better idea on what Israel should be doing, write about it.

I think where the mood is starting to shift for a lot of people who don't have the same skin in the game as the Isreali's and the Palestinian's/Arabs is on logic. A lot of people hold Israel in a very high regard from a western perspective but that is starting to slip in a big way. Hamas has zero credibility in a million ways but Israel is losing theirs as well.

There are a lot of accidents and tragic circumstances involving very very innocent civilians, accidents that shouldn't happen to the same degree for such an advanced military such as the IDF. Israel claims mistakes and tragic circumstances but when questioned on performance and potential incompetence get's very offended in that regard. Which is it?

Even internally there are a lot of questions if people are being honest. Has Israel done enough to get back hostages? Is that the primary focus of this operation? Can they claim civilian casualties prevention is a top priority when we have innocent Israeli citizens screaming in Hebrew and literally waiving white flags being shot by their own military? If that was your relative killed, would your reaction be "good job but ohh well" or would you question what is going on here?

In a hypothetical scenario if a repeat of October 7th happened but on the reverse side with the Hamas terrorists holding Israeli hostages in Israel, would Tel Aviv look like Gaza? Would the government tell us how good of a job they are doing at protecting infrastructure and civilians??

The IDF has sufficient and high quality evidence to send a single drone into a single apartment building, killing a Hezbollah senior commander but then claims ignorance and a lack of knowledge about a UN food convey from it's US ally, with advanced notice? If you gave a friend advanced notice about a package your sending to their house within an hour, and they killed the delivery guy, would you accept the answer that they didn't know who was at the door?

I fully appreciate and support Israeli security concerns, it's right to exist and the need to protect itself. I really do! But when you have Donald Trump publicly question what is going on here, the IDF needs to hurry up and finish up as it's getting too messy, you need to wonder why your losing people on your side? Bibi used to sleep in Donald Trump's son in law's bed when he would visit sometimes. That's a close friendship and they are losing it.

The overwhelming amount of people are sick of Hamas and their BS but people are also getting sick of hearing the BS from the Israeli government in this operation too.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by curves2000

In a hypothetical scenario if a repeat of October 7th happened but on the reverse side with the Hamas terrorists holding Israeli hostages in Israel, would Tel Aviv look like Gaza? Would the government tell us how good of a job they are doing at protecting infrastructure and civilians??

I think this is a very important question. Would those saying Israel has no choice still say that if it were innocent Israeli lives being lost instead of innocent Palestinian lives?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am not sure why you think a defensive war requires some casualty score card, it doesn't. Israel isn't just facing Hamas, it has had attacks from the Houthis, Lebanon, Iran and Gaza. This isn't just some random attack, it is well coordinated.

Israel doesn't have the population to tie up a massive army either, it has to fight this way.

You haven't described an alternative for Israel.

How many civilian casualties over the last 20 years? What they were doing was effective. With 307 military casualties they likely aren’t even preventing more Israeli deaths in the future than Israeli military personal have died in this conflict. It took from 2008 - 2023 for 308 Israeli civilians to be killed. This is bad math from purely an Israeli perspective.

Fix the intelligence failure that led to October 7th and keep doing what they were doing.

As for the scorecard when looking at whether a war is just I think it matters. Ideally the war would prevent future deaths compared to inaction. I think it’s tough to tell if that is the case.

Also to add I have described an alternative when you previously asked this question. Israel should have a lower threshold for the acceptable amount of civilian casualties and a higher threshold for military casualties for each operational decision.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Honestly how is Israel going to defeat Hezbollah if they can't even beat Hamas who is like 1000 times smaller than hezbollah and don't have the weapons hezbollah has?

Been reading a lot of threats about Israel entering lebanon but imo would be a mistake for Israel. They may be able to bomb Lebanon but they'll never defeat hezbollah in Lebanon.

Is that what Netanyahu wants? Endless war so he can stay in power?

[Language]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Honestly how is Israel going to defeat Hezbollah if they can't even beat Hamas who is like 1000 times smaller than hezbollah and don't have the weapons hezbollah has?

Been reading a lot of threats about Israel entering lebanon but imo would be a mistake for Israel. They may be able to bomb Lebanon but they'll never defeat hezbollah in Lebanon.

Is that what Netanyahu wants? Endless war so he can stay in power?

To your last point - you do realize that it’s Hezbollah’s actions that are inching Israel/Hezbollah into an all-out conflict? Sure, there are tit-for-tat recurring strikes by Israel too, but they are not the aggressor here.

Israel does not want war with Hezbollah, just as the Lebanese do not want war with Israel. Lebanon is already battered and bruised economically and this would be disastrous for them.

There are 50,000+ that have been displaced along Israel’s Northern border due to incessant rocket attacks from Hezbollah.

The thing is, there’s not even a land/border dispute with Lebanon, like can be pointed to with the Palestinians. It’s simply a terrorist organization at Israel’s border; an Iranian proxy, that continues to stir up trouble.

There’s actually U.N. Resolution 1701, that was issued at the end of the 2006 Israel/Hezbollah war, that stipulated that Hezbollah should retreat beyond the Lebanon Litani River to create a buffer zone with Israel. Guess who hasn’t abided by that?

Now regarding if an actual war was to break out. Yes it would likely be terrible for all involved, as Hezbollah is much more powerful and has a significant arsenal of weaponry that could overwhelm the Iron Dome.


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[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Your such a ####ing bag of bull####. I've never blamed Israel for Oct 7th, that's probably you projecting your own subconscious feelings. What I've repeatedly said is that killing innocent people to wipe out terrorists just creates more terrorists. My advice is to stop killing innocent people, and stop stealing their land.

A lack of basic reading comprehension is the main culprit of this entire thread.