Israel declares war on Hamas

[Language]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You should give “not cheering on death” a try. It’s pretty great. You get to have a realistic perspective on war and what the inevitable result is going to be without being so morally vacant that you reason yourself into the perpetual cycle of hate and indifference to human suffering that extremists and the death cults you apparently are against feed off.



If you’re “cheering” in this situation, given the serious and ongoing cost of innocent lives, you should ask yourself how much different you are than the people who cheered on October 7. Even if you don’t gain a different perspective about your own views, maybe you’ll gain a different one about theirs.



There’s nothing moral about a pursuit of peace that breeds more violence and death than that lack of peace ever brought.

Way to miss the bulk of my post and cherry pick a particular word, as if to suggest I’m treating this conflict as some sort of hockey game.

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

How many times are you going to say the same thing AFC? You've literally said that like 20 times in this thread.

Funny coming from the likes of you, and others like Bagor, that keep repeating genocide every other post.

The thing is, AFC’s take is the most realistic one, so it likely bears repeating over and over until most people realize that’s the only way peace will ever be achieved. It’s ironic that all of this genocide talk, all of this enablement of the “Palestinian cause”, “resistance”, “colonialism”, etc, just emboldens Hamas and Hezbollah. And by doing so, it brings us further and further away from there ever being peace in the region. The Palestinians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars. There is no “winning” a deal, because there is no balance of power for them, and just like in all of human history, there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick or the rawer deal, and in this case, it will be them and not Israel, so the sooner they accept it, the sooner they can bring peace to their families. Realistically they could have had peace 30 or even 50 years ago; their continuous suffering is self-inflicted.


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[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Language

Way to miss the bulk of my post and cherry pick a particular word, as if to suggest I’m treating this conflict as some sort of hockey game.





Funny coming from the likes of you and Bagor that keep repeating genocide every other post.

The thing is, AFC’s take is the most realistic one, so it likely bears repeating over and over until most people realize that’s the only way peace will ever be achieved. It’s ironic that all of this genocide talk, all of this enablement of the “Palestinian cause”, “resistance”, “colonialism”, etc, just emboldens Hamas and Hezbollah. And by doing so, it brings us further and further away from there ever being peace in the region. The Palestinians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars. There is no “winning” a deal, because there is no balance of power for them, and just like in all of human history, there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick or the rawer deal, and in this case, it will be them and not Israel, so the sooner they accept it, the sooner they can bring peace to their families. Realistically they could have had peace 30 or even 50 years ago.


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The Ukranians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars. There is no “winning” a deal, because there is no balance of power for them, and just like in all of human history, there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick or the rawer deal, and in this case, it will be them and not Russia, so the sooner they accept it, the sooner they can bring peace to their families. Realistically they could have had peace years ago.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Language

The Palestinians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars.

I think proximity to Israel is the biggest win they could get and they blew it big time. Had Gazans made peace with Israel when Israel pulled out of Gaza, they would be in a great situation now instead of the mess they made by choosing terror.

All the posters talking about the suffering of Palestinians in order to justify the savagery being delivered via Iran are a massive obstacle to the Palestinians, they enable more bad behavior. They literally are their own worst enemy. My family lost everything in WW2, as did millions and millions of other people across the world, they chose to build again. Look to Germany, South Korea, Japan, Israel, many examples around the world to move forward, not backwards. Time to make peace with Israel or accept the consequences (checkpoints, buffer zones, etc). Time for the world to put a stop to Iran, Russia and other state sponsors of terror.

R/Lebanon is great to read, there is a big dichotomy between those that support Hezbollah vs those that hate them and recognize how terrible Hezbollah is for their country (ruining it in fact). Even the so called pro-Palestinians in this thread struggle with anything but hatred for Israel, of course disguised as well as they can, while those in Lebanon recognize what Iran is doing to the region.

I have yet to see a Palestinian protest for peace, if there is I am interested in learning. As another poster mentioned, pro-Israel 'protests' (more like celebrations) are a massive contrast to the pro-Palestinian protests, typically with violent messages and hate. Amazingly those started October 7, signs and everything, before Israel ever responded.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

The Ukranians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars. There is no “winning” a deal, because there is no balance of power for them, and just like in all of human history, there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick or the rawer deal, and in this case, it will be them and not Russia, so the sooner they accept it, the sooner they can bring peace to their families. Realistically they could have had peace years ago.

I know you are being facetious, but Ukraine might have to settle for less land for this to end. Entire cities are gone, completely flattened, Russia won't be paying for that. Ethnic cleansing 100% in play by Russia, as the Ukrainian people will not likely ever return to where they once lived. The only way out might be to settle for the less than the ideal option.

And if Ukraine started bombing Russian cafes and buses as 'revenge', they would be the bad guys.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Even the so called pro-Palestinians in this thread struggle with anything but hatred for Israel, of course disguised as well as they can, while those in Lebanon recognize what Iran is doing to the region.

Can you be more clear in your criticism of other people here? What do you mean by “so called pro-Palestinians” and the suggestion that hate for Israel is being “disguised”? People here have been very honest with the criticisms and you’d be hard pressed to find a single critic of the Israeli government who hasn’t criticized groups like Hamas and Hezbollah using equally condemning terminology.

Perhaps you’d like to back this up?

[GGG]

I think you have created a Straw man to argue againt

All the posters talking about the suffering of Palestinians in order to justify the savagery being delivered via Iran are a massive obstacle to the Palestinians, they enable more bad behavior

What posts and posters are you referring to.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

The Ukranians will never get what they want or consider as a fair deal. Their best bet is to eventually settle and accept the best offer presented to them, which will continue to get worse over time, as they continue to wage their jihadi wars. There is no “winning” a deal, because there is no balance of power for them, and just like in all of human history, there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick or the rawer deal, and in this case, it will be them and not Russia, so the sooner they accept it, the sooner they can bring peace to their families. Realistically they could have had peace years ago.

The difference is Ukraine can and is winning, if Hamas could kill 4 or 500,000 Israelis there would be peace, it's Hamas's utter inability to pose any kind of existential threat that dooms them, they can annoy Israel but can't actually hurt them

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Can you be more clear in your criticism of other people here? What do you mean by “so called pro-Palestinians” and the suggestion that hate for Israel is being “disguised”? People here have been very honest with the criticisms and you’d be hard pressed to find a single critic of the Israeli government who hasn’t criticized groups like Hamas and Hezbollah using equally condemning terminology.

Perhaps you’d like to back this up?

I believe that the pro-Palestinian protestors that twist their brains to justify terrorism, cry from the river to the sea, and vilify Israel with their rhetoric are actually doing harm to Palestinians. As long as there is cries for a ceasefire instead of surrender of Hamas, well, you aren't doing the Palestinians any favors.

Had you pushed for peace instead, at least you are promoting something positive.

I doubt either way would help, since we really gotta get Iran out of here (the regime).

My position has been posted numerous times here over the years.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I agree morally, practically if I'm at a crosswalk and the little white man is flashing on the light but the semi-trailor isnt even slowing down I can step out and assert my moral and legal right to cross the intersection or I can stay alive, might is right doesnt describe what the powerful party should do, it describes how the weaker party should view things

I can't believe I have to write this, but it's driving me nuts.

You do realize that in a collective society, we have laws and social understandings that are adhered to. So in your example, we have a set of laws that apply to the driver of the semi-trailer. We don't just shrug and say 'might means right' and give the family of the victim some bizarre lecture about their mistaken idealism.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove with that example. Let me correct myself: it proves something, but it's not flattering.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

You said the middle East hasn't had lasting peace because of the West. The West certainly plays a large role, but there are many inherent conflicts that run independent of the West and would be ongoing without the West.

You said the bolded, which I had basically suggested, wasn't true. It's clearly true and you're also saying it.

Weird argument.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I believe that the pro-Palestinian protestors that twist their brains to justify terrorism, cry from the river to the sea, and vilify Israel with their rhetoric are actually doing harm to Palestinians. As long as there is cries for a ceasefire instead of surrender of Hamas, well, you aren't doing the Palestinians any favors.

Had you pushed for peace instead, at least you are promoting something positive.

I doubt either way would help, since we really gotta get Iran out of here (the regime).

My position has been posted numerous times here over the years.

here's the thing Naga, the reason I think Hamas has to surrender and crawl to lick the boot of Israel is because I believe Israel has become a fairly evil state itself, using any excuse to steal land, killing women and children indiscriminately, if I was Jewish I would be ashamed of Israel, I am not advocating abject surrender because I think Israel is morally right, in fact it's the opposite, I think Hamas has to surrender because Israel has become a violent murderous state which will happily slaughter any arab in its way

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I can't believe I have to write this, but it's driving me nuts.

You do realize that in a collective society, we have laws and social understandings that are adhered to. So in your example, we have a set of laws that apply to the driver of the semi-trailer. We don't just shrug and say 'might means right' and give the family of the victim some bizarre lecture about their mistaken idealism.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove with that example. Let me correct myself: it proves something, but it's not flattering.

Here's the point of my example, how the hell does it help the dead guy to know the truck driver is going to get sued? and that's within a legal code, if Israel is the truck driver aint nothing going to happen to him, Bibi can drive that truck through a Palestinian playground at 150 and kill hundreds, there is no law that applies, the irony is international law only applies to countries that lose, international law is the ultimate example of 'might is right' losers get prosecuted winners go free