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Originally Posted by TOfan
Certainly don’t disagree in principle that teams should never let their top talent leave for nothing. All I know is if I were in Treliving’s shoes and it was my ass/reputation on the line, I would have a plan one way or the other or at the very least ownerships backing to have let the situation get to the point they find themselves in now. Based on the vast majority of comments so would most people. So why do would someone assume Treliving doesn’t? Doesn’t make sense. I doubt very much it has to do with desperation or incompetence. I’m a bit surprised you would suggest as such, really. Labelling people as incompetent when you are making these judgments from 35,000 feet is a pretty uninformed take. None of us know what conversations have been had between Gaudreau’s camp and the Flames. Seems to me Treliving has a lot more skin in the game than we do as fans, yet the fans seem to be the ones on the verge of panic attacks. What we do know is the Gaudreau family has been supportive/appreciative of the Flames and Gaudreau himself has come out publicly saying he would like to resign. Personally, I’m more concerned about Tkachuk and his motivations than Gaudreaau.
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Treliving's competence definitely has to be under consideration at this point, especially based on the points you're trying to make in building a defense of him (points to follow).
I agree with you that the Tkachuk scenario is much more concerning, but could be a huge opportunity for the team if they play it right. The problem there is the same guy that is handling the Gaudreau situation could be the same one to handle the movement of Tkachuk. Doesn't instill much confidence.
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On Gaudreau’s season; ‘there was no way we could have predicted this season’ seems to be laying it on a little thick. Gaudreau is three seasons removed from finishing 4th in Hart voting and 99 points. He had a strong finish to last year, was headed into his UFA season, and, without question, playing with better line mates. Surprised it has been as good as it has? Yes. But shocked? No. I’m not suggesting I predicted this but we always knew Gaudreau was one of the leagues premier point producing/play driving LW’s. And he is still at an age where production is not expected to drop. Put in the right situation, he is elite.
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Yes, three seasons away from that magical 99 point season. Three seasons of trending in the wrong direction and looking completely disinterested in playing for the Flames and Darryl Sutter. Three seasons that established a not very pretty trend. So thinking he was going to experience this resurgence in his production would be living on the fringe of expectations setters. I can't think of anyone that would have looked at previous two seasons, the addition of Sutter and his preference to heavy hockey, the additions made in the off-season to play the aforementioned heavy hockey, and then throw out on the table and expectation for Gaudreau to be a top five scorer. Rotowire had him at 87 (an outlier), NHLtraderumors and NHL.com had him at 69 points, fantasypros had him at 67, and thehockeyfanatic had him at 65. This performance by Gaudreau has been surprising and no one expected this, or anything close to it. Gaudreau is elite but looking at this roster it was lacking that elite talent expected to support him.
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I like you’re posts, Lanny, but I will say I think you’re way off on laying this solely at the feet of Treliving. You don’t think Edwards, or any of the owners for that matter, have ever picked up the phone to say ‘what’s going on with Gsudreau?’ Does Treliving just tell them ‘F off, I got this’? I find that extremely unlikely. Is Treliving running the Flames like Logan Roy runs Norstar??
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This narrative that the Flames owners are looking over the shoulder of everyone in the Flames' organization is tiring. I worked for Edwards and Markin back in the day and they were nowhere near as hands on as is suggested. They hired people and let them do their jobs, not micro-manage the crap out of them. Sure, when things looked to be going sour they would express concern, but they were not puppet masters who would pull the strings to meet their personal feelings or beliefs. I think Edwards' involvement is limited to his regularly cadence of updates and meetings with the team's leadership, as part of the ownership group. Treliving has performance measures he's expected to meet, and unless some serious red flags keep coming up (like a cycle of firing coaches) the ownership remains involved on the periphery.
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After all, more than a few here believe it was the owners who hired Sutter because Treliving couldn’t have possibly done that. If that stands to reason, I’m sure they are negotiating with Gaudreau’s agent now. Then again, these guys just walked away from $290M of tax payers dollars, do maybe they are prepared to let Gaudreau leave for nothing.
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See above. The owners all have other interests and other businesses that need their attention. They don't negotiate with players or get involved in the day-to-day operations. That is why they have guys like Brad Treliving. If they have to negotiate deals with players, then Treliving should be long gone. That means he's not competent in the execution of his duties.
I think Treliving is on his last chance with the owners. I actually do think they stepped in and made a recommendation of a hiring as Treliving had buried his wedge on three consecutive attempts as pitching it close. This is one of those measures that jumps out and suggests there may be some correction or assistance required in hitting the mark. Are they keeping an eye on this negotiation? Most definitely. This will be a franchise altering outcome, one way or another, so there is going to be some interest. Are they going to get involved? Other than approving the largest contract in team history, probably not. Nothing screams Mickey Mouse organization than having your ownership get involved in hockey operations.
Now, to Treliving's competence and the defense you've built up. If Treliving were one of these really smart guys who saw this incredible explosion in scoring, why didn't he push harder to get the deal done prior to the execution of the NTC? He should have recognized that he was in a position of strength and then get the player on the cheap to a long-term deal. For some reason he didn't do that, nor show much urgency to get the deal done prior to the imposition of the NTC. Seems to indicate he was looking for another low scoring season to drive the contract value down? That would be the only explanation for giving up all control the team had in negotiations? I don't know how or why a GM would do what Treliving did - surrendering the only leverage and control the team had - and then think it was the competent move. Because if he saw this season coming, and surrendered the only control the team had, he just cost the team another $2-3M a season. How do you explain this?
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Originally Posted by TOfan
Thought I would circle back to this. In both cases, Tavares and Pietroangelo, the players left their teams to go to cup contenders with heavy paydays. Where does that scenario exist for Gaudreau? Philadelphia? Hell no. New Jersey? Promising but haven’t proven anything.
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As the Jack Eichel scenario showed, the salary cap is something teams can manipulate. If Gaudreau makes it to the open market, there will be 31 other teams making inquiries and trying to make the cap work. Just like if McDavid made it to the open market, every team would be submitting a contract offer and then making the moves after the fact to accommodate the league's biggest flopper and his salary cap hit. I would not discount anyone. The Flyers are a natural to watch (lots of smoke) but I would also keep an eye on Pittsburgh and Boston. Teams with some good talent and big expiring contracts.