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Calgary4LIfe · 05-29-2021, 03:12 PM

This has been an issue that has irked me about Treliving for a while now, and forms my argument as to why the Flames should move on from him.

I argue that the Flames are one of the better drafting teams in the NHL. I also argue that they came out of the rebuild way too quickly spending draft capital. Now, Hamilton was a good player and provided good value at the time, and he certainly was young enough, but I do openly wonder sometimes if those picks wouldn't have turned into important pieces on the Flames right now as well. However, I don't judge that move to be a bad one, but there has been a lot of other draft capital being spent in trying to fill holes or upgrade the roster.

Maybe it was Burke? He has on many occasions stated that he believes a rebuild should be quick. Perhaps that has influenced Treliving - I don't know. For a team that hasn't even been a regular playoff team, Trevling should not have been spending as many draft picks as bona fide contenders around the league.

In terms of how Calgary is as an organization, I would say it is poorly-run now.

Let's look at different areas of the organization.

Drafting: I think this team has been one of the best drafting teams in the NHL. Some years better than others, but since the '07 draft, it has been great. Scratch that. Flames have been awesome at drafting. Yes, Parsons was not a bad pick. He was not a good pick either. He was a fricken out of the park home-run pick. Injuries, personal issues and arguably development have held him back from progressing, but if you want to put a 'fail' at drafting Parsons, there really isn't a point in having a conversation.

Development: I think this team USED to be one of the best development teams in the NHL as well. You can't argue with so many home-grown talents making huge contributions, starting with Backlund, Brodie, Ferland, and I will even count Giordano, as it doesn't make a difference if it was a pick or a free agent prospect. Continued on to Gaudreau, Monahan, Mangiapane and others. It is a pretty good list. However, lately, I do start to question it. I won't say it has been bad, but I do think that from around the time that Hartley was let-go, and the switch suddenly went to 'compete!', this team has made it more difficult for players to develop. Mangiapane has really done well. Andersson was doing well, but he has plateaued. Dube is kind of hiccuping along right now. Kylington is in no man's land of absolute no development time. Bennett was not really developed by the looks of it, though we will see how much better he has become with a full season next year. I am certainly not stating it is bad, but it doesn't seem to be AS GOOD as it was, and certainly has been questionable at times.

Asset Management: This is a mixed bag for me. I like how Calgary traded guys like Glencross, Russell, Hudler, etc., for picks. I HATE how they brought in guys like Bollig, Fatenberg, Forbort, Gustavsson.. Lots of small little cuts. Hindsight is hindsight, but this team was not a contender. Not only did the Flames lose assets for.. what exactly??... but they also lost development time for Kylington and or even Yelesin (who looked ok in a short amount of games). I get the notion of wanting depth in case of a playoff run, but I still didn't like it at the time. Lots of small cuts being made bringing players in who didn't move the needle. Spending assets on poor players like Elliott, or Hamonic - those were deep cuts. Brodie walking for free - what are the Flames? Did they win the cup and were unable to re-sign an important piece? Brodie did want to return. If Treliving didn't want to re-sign him, he should have traded him the prior off-season. Yes, it fell through, but he should have found another deal somewhere else - Brodie was a valuable piece that the Flames got nothing for. I just really dislike the draft capital being used to try and plug holes every season.

Cap Management: Since the cap has been implemented, the best teams are basically those that get their bang for their buck. Seems like there has been a buyout on the books every year that Treliving has been here. I like Lucic, and that was a trade that I supported as soon as the rumours were leaked as a way to mitigate the disaster of the Neal contract, but that's still a poor contract. However, buyouts weren't too bad, and the Lucic isn't THAT overpaid (and I have always supported intangibles, and Lucic brings defence, physicality, the role of an enforcer, and a tonne of leadership). It is still a negative contract, on top of a number of others that have been handed out in UFA Frenzy. Though we do not know what will happen as of yet, I really dislike the contract that Tkachuk received. I really hated when it was signed, but the result I guess is yet to be determined. Hey, if he signs a long-term team friendly - to - fair deal, great! I wouldn't hold my breath, however.

Staff Hires: Well, the coaching decisions have obviously not been great. I believe that a GM should get to hire his own coach, and though I was disappointed with the Hartley firing, I understood and accepted it. However, there were 3 consecutive poor hires afterwards until Sutter. That's unacceptable. However, there have been other hires as well. I liked the Loob hire - out of the park! I liked the expanded assistant GMs. I liked the overall expansion of the front office - Snow being moved up, Johnson brought-in to work in Analytics. I don't mind Maloney brought in - Arizona I thought was always a well-managed team under the circumstances anyway, outside of the last year or two that Maloney was there when things kind of went sideways. I am very unhappy with the coaching hires overall, as I do feel they wasted the best years of this club. I am mostly fine through very happy with the other hires. Really happy with more scouts, for instance. Seems like pro-scouting hasn't worked out. Happy they brought LaBarbera in last season, though I wish they had brought in someone with a long track record.

General Direction: If the above isn't arbitrary enough, this is where most arguments will happen. Where is this team heading? Are they looking like they are closer to being a cup winner? Or are they heading in the wrong direction? Well, I will preface this by saying that I believe Calgary will be a playoff team IF every player from last season is brought back, and you have Sutter as the coach for the full season. I think a lot of things did go wrong that shouldn't have (bad luck), and I really disliked how Ward had this team playing. I do believe that a modern NHL game is a fast game, and Sutter gets it. Fast on the transition, high energy, high effort hockey. Flames may need to upgrade on their 'best in the NHL trainer' as Sutter made a point to mention that this team overall wasn't fit enough! However, is that good enough? Just making the playoffs is good enough now? Not for me. It was great for 2015. It was great for 2016 even. Since then, you want to be able to do more than just make it, given the expenditure of futures and the accumulation of cap hits. This team to me looks like it should consider rebuilding, as opposed to contending. The defence are a mess - one of the lowest scoring defence corps in the league, and looking to get worse with the likely departure of the Captain, with nobody looking like they can fill even his very old worn skates. The Tkachuk contract needs to be addressed THIS OFF-SEASON, as does the Gaudreau contract. Another year in a row where the 'core' is questioned. Some big moves are coming, but why does it feel like Calgary is going to lose the best players in any trade? It is not fair to grade Treliving on moves he has yet to make, but I do think that defence has suddenly become a weakness on this team. It took 7 seasons for Treliving to finally find a fix in net (though the overall numbers haven't suggested it is a fix, I do believe that Markstrom will be a fix). Other holes popped up, and continue to pop up. It certainly feels like the team is headed in the wrong direction at this point. I think a team has to sell you either on their success, or on their hope of having success down the road. There most certainly isn't any success to speak of under Treliving, and I do feel like that hope has disappeared. When a team isn't giving you success or hope, it gives you frustration and anger next. Do this for long enough, and guess what starts to set in? Apathy. That's the worst thing to happen to an entertainment business.

Success: I will give Treliving some credit for the 2015 run in which this team made it to the 2nd round. I mean, most of those players weren't his. Neither was the coach. However, he did add players to the roster, and was the GM. However, since then? What success has this team had? I will tell you exactly - 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons. Maybe next year the Flames can make the playoffs and win a game, so it will be like a series win? For a team that has spent this much draft capital, there is ZERO excuse for that. For a team that is looking like they are going to follow in the footsteps of the 2010 team? This team is no better than a playoff bubble team. To be fair, they did manage to finish 2nd overall (and first in the west) one year. That's still a good accomplishment. That year, the team that finished above them also got embarrassed in the playoffs, so how can you judge Treliving so terrible for that year? Well, that team went on to win the cup the next season. What did the Flames do?

I think it is lacking overall. Drafting is literally the only really good thing this team is doing well on. When you look at other top teams around the league, it seems like they are doing better on more things than the Flames, and that's key. Teams have to consistently be good at many things at once over a period of time. Drafting, developing, managing their cap and coaching seem to be the most critical. Show me a team in the modern era that wasn't a good team at all of them.

That's the argument that I make. I don't think you necessarily have to tank and draft #1 to win a cup (or top 3, or top 5). That's not why Calgary isn't a cup winner. Heck, who here would rather have RNH over Gaudreau? Replace Giordano with Hedman (and upgrade - not being cheeky), and is this suddenly a cup winning team? Replace Monahan with Mathews. Does this team win the cup, or suddenly a cup favourite? I don't think so. Better? Yes, but will that translate to more noteworthy success?

Treliving to me will go down as a forgettable GM. Wasn't terrible, but wasn't memorable. The most memorable, likeable and successful team under his tenure came during his first season, and to me, that speaks volumes.

Lots of draft capital spent - as much as actual cup winning teams - but 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons, and a team that is looking like it is spiralling down. I would say that he has taken this team as far as he could. I am not afraid of worse - worse will quicken this team into a rebuild and give me even a false sense of hope. There is no success, and there is no hope. Keep this up, and for the first time since the Flames moved to Calgary, I might develop apathy.

05-29-2021, 03:12 PM	#113
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	This has been an issue that has irked me about Treliving for a while now, and forms my argument as to why the Flames should move on from him. I argue that the Flames are one of the better drafting teams in the NHL. I also argue that they came out of the rebuild way too quickly spending draft capital. Now, Hamilton was a good player and provided good value at the time, and he certainly was young enough, but I do openly wonder sometimes if those picks wouldn't have turned into important pieces on the Flames right now as well. However, I don't judge that move to be a bad one, but there has been a lot of other draft capital being spent in trying to fill holes or upgrade the roster. Maybe it was Burke? He has on many occasions stated that he believes a rebuild should be quick. Perhaps that has influenced Treliving - I don't know. For a team that hasn't even been a regular playoff team, Trevling should not have been spending as many draft picks as bona fide contenders around the league. In terms of how Calgary is as an organization, I would say it is poorly-run now. Let's look at different areas of the organization. Drafting: I think this team has been one of the best drafting teams in the NHL. Some years better than others, but since the '07 draft, it has been great. Scratch that. Flames have been awesome at drafting. Yes, Parsons was not a bad pick. He was not a good pick either. He was a fricken out of the park home-run pick. Injuries, personal issues and arguably development have held him back from progressing, but if you want to put a 'fail' at drafting Parsons, there really isn't a point in having a conversation. Development: I think this team USED to be one of the best development teams in the NHL as well. You can't argue with so many home-grown talents making huge contributions, starting with Backlund, Brodie, Ferland, and I will even count Giordano, as it doesn't make a difference if it was a pick or a free agent prospect. Continued on to Gaudreau, Monahan, Mangiapane and others. It is a pretty good list. However, lately, I do start to question it. I won't say it has been bad, but I do think that from around the time that Hartley was let-go, and the switch suddenly went to 'compete!', this team has made it more difficult for players to develop. Mangiapane has really done well. Andersson was doing well, but he has plateaued. Dube is kind of hiccuping along right now. Kylington is in no man's land of absolute no development time. Bennett was not really developed by the looks of it, though we will see how much better he has become with a full season next year. I am certainly not stating it is bad, but it doesn't seem to be AS GOOD as it was, and certainly has been questionable at times. Asset Management: This is a mixed bag for me. I like how Calgary traded guys like Glencross, Russell, Hudler, etc., for picks. I HATE how they brought in guys like Bollig, Fatenberg, Forbort, Gustavsson.. Lots of small little cuts. Hindsight is hindsight, but this team was not a contender. Not only did the Flames lose assets for.. what exactly??... but they also lost development time for Kylington and or even Yelesin (who looked ok in a short amount of games). I get the notion of wanting depth in case of a playoff run, but I still didn't like it at the time. Lots of small cuts being made bringing players in who didn't move the needle. Spending assets on poor players like Elliott, or Hamonic - those were deep cuts. Brodie walking for free - what are the Flames? Did they win the cup and were unable to re-sign an important piece? Brodie did want to return. If Treliving didn't want to re-sign him, he should have traded him the prior off-season. Yes, it fell through, but he should have found another deal somewhere else - Brodie was a valuable piece that the Flames got nothing for. I just really dislike the draft capital being used to try and plug holes every season. Cap Management: Since the cap has been implemented, the best teams are basically those that get their bang for their buck. Seems like there has been a buyout on the books every year that Treliving has been here. I like Lucic, and that was a trade that I supported as soon as the rumours were leaked as a way to mitigate the disaster of the Neal contract, but that's still a poor contract. However, buyouts weren't too bad, and the Lucic isn't THAT overpaid (and I have always supported intangibles, and Lucic brings defence, physicality, the role of an enforcer, and a tonne of leadership). It is still a negative contract, on top of a number of others that have been handed out in UFA Frenzy. Though we do not know what will happen as of yet, I really dislike the contract that Tkachuk received. I really hated when it was signed, but the result I guess is yet to be determined. Hey, if he signs a long-term team friendly - to - fair deal, great! I wouldn't hold my breath, however. Staff Hires: Well, the coaching decisions have obviously not been great. I believe that a GM should get to hire his own coach, and though I was disappointed with the Hartley firing, I understood and accepted it. However, there were 3 consecutive poor hires afterwards until Sutter. That's unacceptable. However, there have been other hires as well. I liked the Loob hire - out of the park! I liked the expanded assistant GMs. I liked the overall expansion of the front office - Snow being moved up, Johnson brought-in to work in Analytics. I don't mind Maloney brought in - Arizona I thought was always a well-managed team under the circumstances anyway, outside of the last year or two that Maloney was there when things kind of went sideways. I am very unhappy with the coaching hires overall, as I do feel they wasted the best years of this club. I am mostly fine through very happy with the other hires. Really happy with more scouts, for instance. Seems like pro-scouting hasn't worked out. Happy they brought LaBarbera in last season, though I wish they had brought in someone with a long track record. General Direction: If the above isn't arbitrary enough, this is where most arguments will happen. Where is this team heading? Are they looking like they are closer to being a cup winner? Or are they heading in the wrong direction? Well, I will preface this by saying that I believe Calgary will be a playoff team IF every player from last season is brought back, and you have Sutter as the coach for the full season. I think a lot of things did go wrong that shouldn't have (bad luck), and I really disliked how Ward had this team playing. I do believe that a modern NHL game is a fast game, and Sutter gets it. Fast on the transition, high energy, high effort hockey. Flames may need to upgrade on their 'best in the NHL trainer' as Sutter made a point to mention that this team overall wasn't fit enough! However, is that good enough? Just making the playoffs is good enough now? Not for me. It was great for 2015. It was great for 2016 even. Since then, you want to be able to do more than just make it, given the expenditure of futures and the accumulation of cap hits. This team to me looks like it should consider rebuilding, as opposed to contending. The defence are a mess - one of the lowest scoring defence corps in the league, and looking to get worse with the likely departure of the Captain, with nobody looking like they can fill even his very old worn skates. The Tkachuk contract needs to be addressed THIS OFF-SEASON, as does the Gaudreau contract. Another year in a row where the 'core' is questioned. Some big moves are coming, but why does it feel like Calgary is going to lose the best players in any trade? It is not fair to grade Treliving on moves he has yet to make, but I do think that defence has suddenly become a weakness on this team. It took 7 seasons for Treliving to finally find a fix in net (though the overall numbers haven't suggested it is a fix, I do believe that Markstrom will be a fix). Other holes popped up, and continue to pop up. It certainly feels like the team is headed in the wrong direction at this point. I think a team has to sell you either on their success, or on their hope of having success down the road. There most certainly isn't any success to speak of under Treliving, and I do feel like that hope has disappeared. When a team isn't giving you success or hope, it gives you frustration and anger next. Do this for long enough, and guess what starts to set in? Apathy. That's the worst thing to happen to an entertainment business. Success: I will give Treliving some credit for the 2015 run in which this team made it to the 2nd round. I mean, most of those players weren't his. Neither was the coach. However, he did add players to the roster, and was the GM. However, since then? What success has this team had? I will tell you exactly - 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons. Maybe next year the Flames can make the playoffs and win a game, so it will be like a series win? For a team that has spent this much draft capital, there is ZERO excuse for that. For a team that is looking like they are going to follow in the footsteps of the 2010 team? This team is no better than a playoff bubble team. To be fair, they did manage to finish 2nd overall (and first in the west) one year. That's still a good accomplishment. That year, the team that finished above them also got embarrassed in the playoffs, so how can you judge Treliving so terrible for that year? Well, that team went on to win the cup the next season. What did the Flames do? I think it is lacking overall. Drafting is literally the only really good thing this team is doing well on. When you look at other top teams around the league, it seems like they are doing better on more things than the Flames, and that's key. Teams have to consistently be good at many things at once over a period of time. Drafting, developing, managing their cap and coaching seem to be the most critical. Show me a team in the modern era that wasn't a good team at all of them. That's the argument that I make. I don't think you necessarily have to tank and draft #1 to win a cup (or top 3, or top 5). That's not why Calgary isn't a cup winner. Heck, who here would rather have RNH over Gaudreau? Replace Giordano with Hedman (and upgrade - not being cheeky), and is this suddenly a cup winning team? Replace Monahan with Mathews. Does this team win the cup, or suddenly a cup favourite? I don't think so. Better? Yes, but will that translate to more noteworthy success? Treliving to me will go down as a forgettable GM. Wasn't terrible, but wasn't memorable. The most memorable, likeable and successful team under his tenure came during his first season, and to me, that speaks volumes. Lots of draft capital spent - as much as actual cup winning teams - but 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons, and a team that is looking like it is spiralling down. I would say that he has taken this team as far as he could. I am not afraid of worse - worse will quicken this team into a rebuild and give me even a false sense of hope. There is no success, and there is no hope. Keep this up, and for the first time since the Flames moved to Calgary, I might develop apathy.