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Originally Posted by PepsiFree
I agree. Lots of innocent people targeted here and it’s disgusting regardless of the target.
You point goes both ways, though. We’ve spent a year reading people justify Israel’s disproportionate response and still today see people suggesting that if it wasn’t for October 7, or the 100 hostages, or everything else, this wouldn’t be happening. “F—- around and find out” has been used.
I think the attack on Israeli soccer fans is horrible and rightly condemned by the world. And yes, it’s horrible that some Israeli soccer fans were shouting anti-Arab epithets, desecrating their flag, and attacking people, but that doesn’t mean the many innocent people among them should have feared for their lives.
I would hope, at least, looking at this event through that lens, defenders of this genocide would take pause. Or did the attacked have a right to respond and is this just another episode of “F around and find out”? I doubt it.
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If you disagree with the bolded state your case. Do you think it would be happening with a docile Gaza instead of a provocative one? If so why? Why didn't it happen before Oct. 7 then? Oct 7 was not proximate cause for the worst Israeli actions but it's a necessary prerequisite. I would also argue that it was proximate cause for some kind of military response from Israel, as "just take it" wasn't in the viable range of responses.
And I didn't say that the Israeli response was proportionate. My point was that Hamas provoking an Israeli response and was the absolute stupidest thing they could've done if they actually cared about Palestinians, especially if they believe that Israel wants to wipe them out.
For you to compare the Isreali fan actions to Oct 7th is pretty gross. If Palestinians had been burning Isreali flags and using anti-Semitic language, I would not consider that a provocation for a military response. And I would grant that any Palestinian or group of Palestinians being physically attacked in Amsterdam had the right to physically defend themselves.
But, just as I don't think Oct 7th justifies genoicide, I don't grant anyone the right to escalate from shouting even racist things and desecrating a flag to assault. It may not be wise, but the right to offend is an important freedom. When the line is crossed into hate speech and incitation it should be dealt with legally. There is no equivalent freedom for Hamas to murder and kidnap Israeli civilians.