[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I see relishing.

I agree with what you're saying. I've been trying to stay away from this thread to let the temperature settle down and some of the emotion burn off. The progressive left made a conscious decision to not vote (again) and that really hurt the Dems (wasn't the only reason, but was a big reason). They aren't taking responsibility for this action but are instead trying to dunk on the Dems for not going full Thelma and Louise and driving the whole party off the cliff to appease them. It's bizarre, but they don't understand politics nor their own actions. They put themselves and their vote above everyone else and that ultimately hurts them more than if they actually engaged the process and understood they have to make compromise to move the needle in their direction.

Also, that's the MO of the individual you're arguing with. They will take a position counter to yours to argue, then argue like they are right without proof or substance, and then constantly try to dunk on you for things you haven't said or they have twisted out of context. Their tactics are extremely Trumpian in nature actually. Project, deny, deflect, but bring nothing of substance to defend their claims. Difficult to have a have a rational conversation with and impossible to debate with because the rules they demand you comply with seemingly don't apply to them. Put them on ignore. You won't see their stupid posts, you won't want to engage them, the board will be easier to read, and your life will be better.

Originally Posted by nfotiu

The last couple pages read like "you should have listened to us", or here's a random Tweet showing why we were right. That's fine. But what did or does a winning message to the working class look like?

They don't know and they can't tell you. They are going to tell what their frame says, but it is not representative of the values or concerns of Americans. Therein lies the problem. Understanding the American mentality and trying to appeal to it.

I've heard more than a couple progressive, white college kids living fairly privileged live say things like "I'm not voting this time around because it doesn't really make any difference to me"

Maybe it is only 4-5 people, or maybe it is a million, but it's not zero, and the common language makes it sound like they are being influenced by someone.

You're going to get hit with an argument that is isolated and only from where you live, that is not indicative of the whole country. Except that it is. The same things were heard on college campuses across the country.

Do those guys care that I had a couple female (one gay) employees call in yesterday morning because they were distraught to show up?

No, they don't. Americans are too self-centered to think about the impact of their decisions on others. It's the same thing with "progressives". They don't understand, nor care, what their self-centered thinking or actions have on the larger population around them. They only want their way.

Originally Posted by GGG

I’d argue polling access is what led to lower turn out. Someone would need to do the analysis but a lot of areas became more restrictive.

This is a great point. Access to voting in many urban areas is greatly limited, especially in areas where minorities cast their ballots. If they want to vote they have wait in long lines (hours at a time) or travel to a polling station that make voting difficult. It is all part of the larger voter suppression plan and it continues to prove to be effective.

There was a lot that lead to depressed voter turn out, but I think you hit on one of the long standing issues. I think people were also impacted by the polling data that was out, not understanding that polling data was manipulated, and it made them feel like their vote wouldn't matter. The propaganda that circulated this campaign was some of the worst and most dishonest I have even seen, and with an uneducated electorate that disinformation was also very effective in confusing the vote. IMO, there needs to be election laws that prevent the creation and use of PACs, especially those that spread lies about issues or candidates. All of this just drives people away from voting rather than to the polls. The US system is broken.