Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
I’m a little disappointed that you don’t seem to actually be open to listening to and thinking about the issue, so I don’t see much value in continuing the conversation with you. Feel free to call me a dishonest, ridiculous fool all you want, I guess, but I don’t think advocating for specific, science-based approaches to fairness in sports instead of blanket bans on trans people is any of those things.
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Well, I am listening, but I have not been persuaded. I don't think you're assessing what I'm saying objectively, either, so I guess we're at an impasse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Limits on testosterone levels, which has a direct correlation with the physical advantages that men may have over women in certain sports, is an approach that actually attempts to draw a line on what is fair. Medical experts recognize that women (who were born women) that have exceedingly high testosterone levels may have the same physical advantages over women that fall in the normal range as men with average testosterone levels do. Setting a limit on those levels for elite competition excludes some trans women, sure, but it also excludes some cis women. If you want to talk about fair, that’s the kind of conversation you have. If you want to exclude trans women solely on the basis of them having transitioned and nothing else, then you’re not talking about “fair” or “honesty,” you’re taking an anti-trans position.
If women don’t want to compete against trans people then we should absolutely be critical of that desire.
The idea that both trans men and trans women, and those who are non gender conforming should be excluded based solely on those factors and not on any biological, chemical, or physical basis is ridiculous.
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I understand the bolded, but only if you discount the argument that the bigots (and me, apparently) are making that biological men do have a biological, chemical and physical difference from biological females. It's not like I'm out to punish trans people for...
reasons?
Anyway, I've made my point and I know you are a part of a community to which this is a closer topic than it is for me. I don't want to jeopardize our Internet friendship over this and I'm still listening with an attempt at an open mind. I would like to be wrong and just hear something that clicks into place what you guys are seeing/saying. I'm not ignorant to the "thankses" people are getting from the posters I typically share perspectives with. I'm not sure why I'm unable to see things from that perspective on this one.