[Red Slinger]

So, I stated this in response to a few of the recent posts in this thread that are making it relatively unreadable.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Good faith discussion in this thread is few and far between. It's mostly people taking a side and defending that side, usually by way of deflection and whataboutisms.

Originally Posted by Bagor

No I didn't.



NO-ONE in this thread has tried to paint Hamas as victims yet you tried to imply they were.

That or you consider the civilians of Gaza to equate to Hamas. The one and same.

You were questioned on this for clarification but you disappeared.

But you just carry on with your self righteous lecturing about arguing in good faith.

You have this habit of putting words in other peoples mouths. I didn't imply anything about all Palestinians being Hamas. I said people are staking a claim on one side or another and then arguing almost exclusively in favour of that side with little or no nuance. You, for instance, seem to argue that Israel is evil and they are clearly the bad guys. I happen to think that they are one of the bad guys in this mess, along with Hamas, some Palestinians, the government of Iran, the government of USA, the government of Russia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Hezbollah and Qatar (and likely more). So, yes, I think YOU (and several others that are largely monopolizing this thread) are arguing in bad faith by painting one side as bad and the other as victims.

I don't know what you're referring to regarding the clarification you asked for. I don't recall seeing it but even if I did what I owe you for an explanation falls between jack and squat. You like to 'demand' answers from others but tend to refrain answering direct questions when they're posed back to you. So, if you want to stop the self-righteous behavior in this thread, maybe start by talking to the guy in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, assignment accepted. I went through the thread and read your posts. A lot were reasonable, but not all IMO. I think this post, in particular, seems to argue that the civilian casualties are not unacceptable. You specifically say if Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza it "will lead to the death of Israel civilians and likely the destruction of Israel."

You seem to be in favour of "wiping out Hamas now" as you think it "will probably prevent more civilian casualties in the future," but I'd say your argument falls short of wanting Israel to prevent civilian deaths since you say: "I hope that they somehow manage to get the civilians out of Gaza but that's not an easy task either as Hamas shields themselves with civilians, even if they're refugees." Also, is it just Israeli civilians you are trying to prevent in the future, or all civilian deaths in the area? Because if your goal is to prevent all civilian deaths then Israel is doing a piss-poor job of that.

This really sounds like you don't want civilians to die, but you're fine with it as long as they get Hamas members as well. You are also unwilling to tell us how many civilian deaths are too many.

I'm not 'fine' with civilians deaths but I recognize that it is a necessary evil in any conflict. I think I stated as much.

Am I reading you wrong here? This is your post, FTR:

Also, when going through your posts I realized you were the guy who edited a post of mine you quoted to change its meaning. That was crazy and demonstrated a total disregard for an honest discussion:

Yes, I didn't quote your entire post. People do that sometimes. I was responding to a certain thing you said. I didn't realize I was breaking an internet rule about only responding to part of your post.

IDK, after reading your posts I definitely agree you have some nuance in your position and I don't think you're a bloodthirsty kill-all-Palestinians kind of guy; however, you absolutely seem to have given Israel a pass on killing Palestinian civilians to avenge October 7 in a way that seems inconsistent with how you value the lives of Israel civilians. In other words, when I read your posts I think you believe Palestinians civilians are more expendable than Israeli civilians.

I appreciate the concern you have regarding my views. The only reason we got here is because someone said I don't care about Palestinian civilians dying in the conflict, which I think I've demonstrated is inaccurate. In any case, this thread shouldn't be about me and I'm sorry for those who are unfortunately reading this to be subjected to this silliness.

I'm also willing to acknowledge your views could have evolved away from that post I quoted, so if you walk that back some I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.

Of course my view has evolved. As the conflict has evolved and Israel's bombing has become more indiscriminate, my view has adjusted accordingly.