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Originally Posted by Language

I generally respect your posts and viewpoint even though we’re on opposite ends, but I have to call this part out, and I hope you see where I’m coming from and re-think what you said.

I find it absolutely asinine that Jewish people are just supposed to look past anyone yelling “from the river to sea”, as some sort of call for Palestinian freedom, when the slogan in and of itself calls for the eradication of Israel and slaughter of Jewish people. Hamas themselves have blatantly said they want to kill all the Jews and have no interest in peace.

Why the hell should that statement not be taken at face value? And how is that statement being repeated out in the open not considered hateful?

Most of the people yelling that slogan at these rallies can’t even tell you which river or which sea, but have no problem yelling it. Their knowledge of this conflict is what they learned on TikTok earlier that day, and they’re just going around chanting destructive slogans.

This is similar to the disastrous congressional hearings with the Ivy League heads from Harvard and Penn. They couldn’t even acknowledge that anyone yelling genocide against Jews is hate speech, and it “depends on the context”. Imagine if that same question was asked about black people or the LGBT2Q+. I can bet my savings her answer would not have been the same.

Accepting this kind of stuff is what has bred anti-semitism.

While I have no issue with Palestinians or others championing their cause, I find it insane that we should just accept people yelling “from the river to the sea” as some sort of righteous chant, when this is the same rhetoric and ideology being spewed by terrorist organizations.


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There isn’t a lot here that makes sense, so I’m not sure what to respond to.

Before judging those who learned “destructive slogans” on TikTok, you could at least look into the origins and usage of the phrase over the last 60 years, which predates Hamas’ usage by 50+ years. They don’t determine the meaning of the phrase any more than pro-fascism truckers determine the meaning of the Canadian flag.

It is interesting you mention Black people, though, considering “Black lives matter” was also repeatedly misrepresented in an attempt to demonize and discredit anyone who used it.

This is from Dov Waxman, an “internationally recognized expert on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Jewish–Arab relations in Israel, Israeli politics and foreign policy, Israel–United States relations, American Jewry’s relationship with Israel, Jewish politics, and contemporary Antisemitism” and a man who is Jewish himself:

Dov Waxman, a professor and director of the Nazarian Center for Israel Studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, does not perceive the slogan to be "inherently threatening" and believes that is not what many Palestinians and their supporters mean when repeating it.

"It's an expression of Palestinian nationalism and it's an expression of a demand for Palestinian freedom or self-determination," said Waxman. "I think Palestinian self-determination need not come at the expense of Jewish self-determination. Nor do I think Palestinian freedom has to be considered a threat to Jewish rights."

According to Waxman, many Jewish people hear the chant as a call for "the violent destruction of Israel," which is how Hamas and its supporters use the phrase.

Waxman said that "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" originated in the 1960s as an expression of Palestinian nationalism and has been co-opted by various groups over time, including Hamas when the group formed in 1987.

He noted that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his Likud Party believe that "Jews had the rightful claim to this entire territory."

"They still would like to have Jewish sovereignty, essentially, from the river to the sea," Waxman said.

Waxman said that "From the river to the sea…" has different meanings depending on the context in which it is used.

"If it's invoked by supporters of Hamas, for example, [the chant] has a very different meaning, and I would understand that as much more threatening than if it was advocated by, say, Rashida Tlaib," Waxman said.

Waxman says the vision of a single state in which Israeli and Palestinian people live with equal rights is "utopian," but "I don't think we should necessarily see [the slogan] as a call for ethnic cleansing or genocide, which is how many Jews do hear it."

According to Waxman, the backlash against the slogan is a result of an "effort to essentially insist that any form of anti-Zionism, any opposition to Israel's continued existence as a Jewish state, is inherently antisemitic, so even when that statement is now [said] by a college student who might favour just granting of equal rights [to] Palestinians in the West Bank, in Gaza, there are those who want to insist that that is inherently antisemitic."

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7033881

I hope you do the same as you asked of me, see where experts like Waxman are coming from, and re-think what you said and the way you demonize anyone who utters that phrase.

EDIT: It’s also fairly telling that the people who thanked your post are a veritable who’s who for consuming and spreading pro-Israeli misinformation in this thread. At the end of the day, you’ll see what you want to see and hate who you want to hate, regardless of how unfounded the specific reasons may be, and regardless of how many Jewish experts provide more enlightened perspectives.