[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rights and freedoms are easy to identify. Opportunities are far more difficult.

True. BUT! Imagine how much less difficult it would be if you put any effort into asking LGBTQ folks what those opportunities are. You'd probably be surprised how simple and benign a lot of them are. But, I get it, that's a lot of effort.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You have it completely backwards. For most of the last century, it was liberal universalism that drove progress in Canada. The idea that people should not be treated differently by law and by our institutions due to their sex, religion, or race. We changed legislation and reformed institutions. We saw massive gains in women working and going to college, in minorities pursuing higher education and engaging in culture and media, in striking discrimination against homosexuality from our laws. All of those gains were made by universalism - treating everyone the same, instead of treating them different like we did in the bad old days.

I have "you don't have to wait for society to shift from identity politics to 'universalism' before you do something" backwards? You're saying we do have to wait? Or it's already here, and you're just not doing anything anyway?

Three cheers for universalism anyhow. Now go do something meaningful with that knowledge that actually helps someone.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What actions do you think liberal-minded people in Canada should be taking today that they aren’t?

Spend less time using LGBTQ topics as an opportunity for online rants about identity politics, the political left, or whatever else, and (if online rants are as much as we can ask) use that time to engage honestly with the issues laid out before you. If we can ask any more, direct that energy to politicians, leaders, communities, or anyone else where a positive, accepting, universalism-inspired influence will make an actual difference.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Presumably, you’re calling for imposing equality of outcomes across our institutions and culture. That’s an entirely different ideology, with different assumptions about how society operates, different aims, and different methods of changing society.

I'm not presumably calling for anything. I'm rejecting the idea that people who are lacking rights, freedoms, or opportunities should just "wait their turn." I'm also rejecting the idea that people should respond to pushback for those things with "well, we didn't wait our turn, so it's our fault really." I feel like if you bothered to read it, that would have been fairly obvious, but I'm guessing you were just trying to stuff in this next point:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s fine to subscribe to this progressive equity movement (or whatever you want to call it). But it’s a break from the rights movements of the 20th century, and it’s fundamentally at odds with many liberal values. And those values are not held only (or even mainly) by the privileged. Most minorities do not support institutional equality of outcome. Two-thirds of Black Americans say the only thing that should factor into college admissions is grades. Asian-Americans are launching lawsuits against institutions that practice affirmative action because they’re usually on the losing end of quotas. And despite a big advantage in money and campaigning behind it, Proposition 16 in California (a minority-majority state) failed.

Cool. Nothing to do with what I'm talking about, but you got to talk about affirmative action, so... cool.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The progressive equity program is not popular. It’s a movement mainly championed by educated, upper-middle-class white people (unsurprising given its roots in academia).

Also cool. Irrelevant, but cool.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This kind of rhetoric is spectacularly wrong-headed. You’re never going to convince a dude who unloads Sobey’s trucks that he enjoys the luxuries of being part of the dominant culture. Actors, HR professionals, and sociology professors calling people who have high school educations and work ####ty jobs to reflect on their privilege and feel guilt about their culture is among the most bewildering own goals by the political left in modern times. You couldn’t come up with a more effective way to drive the working class into the arms of the populist right if you tried.

Yes, it was wrong-headed of me to blithely use the term "luxury" about things that are really anything-but, knowing you specifically would latch onto the term to proceed to rant about the political left instead of attempting to engage with the sentiment with any honesty whatsoever.

First, I would like to apologise for referring to more recent gains in the areas of adoption, blood donations, and spousal rights across some of the more liberal democracies out there, along with yet-realised gains like donating sperm, reading books to children without people hating you, or just casually being out and about without worry as "luxuries." Jack off in an extra jar for me Cliff, it's a luxury after all.

Second, I would like to apologise to the Sobey's guy you made up instead of bothering to exercise empathy for any actual real person. I did not mean to call his life luxurious, and I'm sorry he's now alt-right because of it. Apologies, Sobey's guy, please come back.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We don’t need identity politics or equity ideology to combat people shooting up drag shows or vandalizing Pride events. Those are illegal activities, regardless of who is carrying out the actions and who they’re targeting. As for protests, as long as they’re on public property, and aren’t threatening anyone or committing hate crimes, it’s one of the prices we play to live in a liberal society. It sucks sometimes. But it’s preferable to authorities picking sides on contentious issues and shutting down speech they don’t like. Because any tool you give authorities to control speech is guaranteed to be used against you when your opponents get into power.

Sometimes, it's OK to read about the struggles some groups are actively facing and just... I don't know... listen? Internalize? Think, learn, gain perspective, etc.? But thank you for giving permission for people to believe it "sucks sometimes" while also reminding us that it is, in fact, illegal to shoot people and bad to control speech. This is important work.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I get that some people think treating everyone the same isn’t enough (cue the cartoon of the kids standing on different sized boxes to see over a fence). But it’s better than the alternative. It’s better than legitimizing race, gender, and sexual orientation as our most important civic identities.

How you read a post outlining the desire to be treated the same as everyone else and came to this conclusion, I honestly do not know. It would be beyond the pale for almost anyone else. But hey, this was always more about what you wanted to say than what you were responding to, right?