[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

This video has already been debunked back in this thread. Not only is it incorrect in the assumptions of how the gimbal cameras work it also ignores that there were multiple eye witnesses to the craft (two F-18 crews on intercept) and the plethora of electronic and radar sensor data from multiple ships.

Originally Posted by jammies

No one has brought them up to be dismissed, either. You're being disingenuous, the argument has largely been between those who believe the American government is hiding evidence of alien visitors (like you) vs those who don't.

So bring the ideas and explanations up for discussion. The argument has gone the way it has because people propose ideas/explanations and they are discussed based on the posted information. We aren't going to discuss things that aren't posted.

I'm certainly open to arguing in favour of time travelers though, as it neatly explains why the conspiracy has never been exposed - they just go back and change history every time someone talks. The Morlocks are among us - they want to steal our precious bodily fluids and kidnap our fertile women to repopulate the end of time!

This might be why the idea hasn't been put forward. Who wants to put an idea out there that is just going to be mocked at first blush?

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Most people in the science community think it's a pile of crap and a waste of time and money investigating it, a few grainy infrared videos and a couple of guys with nothing more than hearsay isn't going to change that.

This isn't true. At all. The science community would like more involvement and ability to do proper analysis. They would like to know exactly what is going on, just like everyone else. The community remains highly skeptical just like they are on field of study, but nothing would make the community as a whole more excited than the discovery proof of life elsewhere in the universe. SETI continues to listen for deep space signals and we continue to scan the heaven, including a $10B roll of the dice to put JWST in orbit, in hopes of finding answers to the question of are we alone.

Ask yourself the question of why these pilots don't get better photo's or video of these objects, there are literally 1000's of pic's/videos and selfies from fighter pilots all over the net, one would think they would have their phone ready for a ufo.

Security concerns might be a start? Because they are discouraged from releasing such information? How many times do you need these pilots to say their careers are threatened and then they are ridiculed when they do talk about it. They are also in an active engagement and may not have chance to pull out their phone and take "selfies" when they're working as an actual team to engage a possible hostile. Why don't we see more "selfies" of engagements between our pilots and foreign fighters? Why don't we see selfies of the first engagements between the F22 and the J-20 or Mig-57? I mean, the pilots must certainly wanted to get up close pictures of those events for the Facebook or Instagram account, right?

What this boils down to is people are gullible and people make a lot of money from the gullible, Just watch, Mr. Grusch will now have speaking engagements,pod cast appearances and a future book deal, and again there won't be one ounce of real evidence to support his claims. Just another con job.

Except that Grush made his testimony before congress and was very clear he would share details but only in a manner than complied with his whistleblower protections. He is not able to speak to such things in the open without possibly going to prison. So unless congress can get access to the information - which they are being denied by the military - nothing will come of this.

I do think your claim here is ridiculous. Whistleblowers don't come forth to make money. Money is never a thought when coming forward as a whistleblower, you're more concerned about the potential damage it will do to your career and life in general. You do these things because you strongly believe there is a wrong to be righted.

This appearance by Grush and company should make you very happy. This is an opportunity to throw back the shroud of secrecy and get to the bottom of this long-standing issue. We could finally find out one way or another. The problem is lack of transparency. The military continues to rebuff congress from even entering bases let alone secure facilities or information stores. That is troubling. That should be telling you they have something to hide and is consistent with Grush's testimony. You and others have said in the past that if they are sitting on something get it out in the open and let's see it. Let's hope this generates that moment and GGG get's his peer review he's hoping for.

There is already something positive coming from the testimony given in front of congress. According to Graves there has been a dramatic increase in people reaching out to his organization from pilots wanting to share their experiences.



So this is not as isolated as some would make it out to be. Maybe this will lift the stigma that is associated with such events and allow people to speak more openly about their experiences.

One last point to make, this is not a United States issue. This is a global issue and has been going on all over the world. It's convenient to suggest it is only a issue in the United States but we have an open society where we are able to discuss such events. Other countries aren't that way. Other countries don't also mock those who come forward the way we do here. Other countries have studied UFOs/UAPs for decades as well.

Here is a copy of a report drafted by France.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/s...areport01a.htm

https://ia804708.us.archive.org/20/i...%281999%29.pdf

From Conclusions and Recommendations of the extensive report.

"The UFO problem cannot be eliminated by mere caustic and offhand witticisms. Since the publication of the first report by the Association des Anciens Auditeurs of IHEDN 20 years ago. CNES has conducted serious studies in close collaboration with the Gendarmerie National and the Air Force primarily, as well as with other State agencies (Civil Aviation, Weather Service, etc.). These studies tally with other research conducted more or less discretely abroad, mainly in the United States.

They demonstrate the almost certain physical reality of completely unknown flying objects with remarkable flight performances and noiselessness, apparently operated by intelligent [beings]. With their maneuvers, these flying objects considerably impress civilian and military pilots, who hesitate to speak [about them]. The fear of appearing ridiculous, alienated, or simply gullible is the principal reason for this reserve. Secret craft definitely of earthly origin (drones, stealth aircraft, etc.) can only explain a minority of cases. If we go back far enough in time, we clearly perceive the limits of this explanation.

Thus we are forced to resort to other hypotheses. Some can neither be confirmed nor invalidated. They are therefore not scientific, and, certainly, it is very difficult to scientifically study rare, elusive, and chance phenomena, when science is based above all on experiments and their reproducibility. However, the example of meteorites shows that this type of phenomenon can nevertheless end up being accepted by the scientific community after centuries of doubt and rejection.

A single hypothesis sufficiently takes into account the facts and, for the most part, only calls for present-day science. It is the hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors. Advanced as of 1947 by certain U.S. military personnel, today it is popular worldwide. It is discredited by a certain elite, but is plausible. Scientists (astronomers, physicists, engineers, futurologists, etc.) have elaborated on it enough for it to be receivable - as a hypothesis - by their peers.

Different plausible variants concerning the voyage of one or more civilizations from a remote solar system to ours have been developed. A model of magneto-hydrodynamic technology, which could be employed to propel the UFOs in the atmosphere, has been well developed. Other manifestations of these objects have begun to receive a physical explanation (automobile breakdowns, truncated beams [of light], etc.).

The purposes of these possible visitors remain unknown, but they must be the subject of indispensable speculations and the development of prospective scenarios. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is far from the best scientific hypothesis. It certainly has not been categorically proven, but strong presumptions exist in its favor and if it is correct, it is loaded with consequences."

The report also references significant studies done in the UK and Russia/Soviet Union.

He is an infographic presentation on topic.



Here's a CIA report to support this.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000042346.pdf

On the time travel front, it appears it is theoretically plausible and not in the realm of crackpots like some would think.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...avel-possible/