Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebot
OK Chamberlain (or should I say Musk).
We all know why the west hasn't directly intervened, you haven't triggered an epiphany by stupidly telling us the obvious Russia has nukes. Oh golly, no one knew that! They can even use them first? Wow!
France and Britain didn't stop Hitler for fear of a repeat of WWI. Not only did they not stop it, but France was lost in the process and made it so much more worse. What do you think should have happened? More appeasement?
Appeasement does not work. Never has, never will. It merely emboldens and kicks the bucket down the road.
You are using the same bull#### thinking that people used before the war. Maybe just give Putin Crimea and the territories he wants and he will be content, do some finger wagging. He has nukes after all and could nuke us if we intervene.
Putin would never go to war and invade Ukraine, he must be bluffing, just appease him a bit and he will be content. Oh he actually invaded? Ukraine is lost surely, do some more finger wagging and make sure to restate how bad this looks, maybe kick them off SWIFT. Ukraine should just surrender rather then fight (your words). He has nukes after all and could nuke us if we intervene.
Oh Putin is actually losing and didn't take Ukraine in 3 days? Time to parrot Elon Musk and say Ukraine should just give up the so called annexed regions to appease Putin and satisfy your fear of being nuked or heavens forbid think of something that could negatively happen to you if gets enraged further. He has nukes after all and he could nuke us if we intervene.
There are some conflicts that simply cannot be avoided no matter how hard you try. It should be painfully obvious by now that this will not end with Putin saying "Ok you win Ukraine" and he is hellbent on exterminating as many Ukrainians as possible. You give Ukraine everything they need, because Putin will use any excuse or fabricate one to escalate regardless. Only reason he hasn't use nukes yet is it means the end of him, which has been made very clear by the US and NATO.
I do fully expect him to use nukes at some point with or without NATO involvement. He has already invented a casus belli with the annexation of the 4 regions. He can already use nukes according to Russia's nuke policy right now. So what the hell are you blabbing on about their policy for? They already have the conditions. If he sees the end is near, he's still going to use them rather then accept defeat.
You are trying to reason with someone who uses the terms "denazification" and "desatinization" of Ukraine and who has already mobilized his country in a 'fight against NATO'. Do you think he is planning to stop even when he has clearly lost? How the #### do you think this ends? With Putin saying sorry and singing kumbaya with everyone?
Let's also not forget that Ukraine is in this position due to the world working to remove the nuclear arsenal they possessed on their territory with a treaty and security assurance that Russia has since rescinded. Ukraine had a nuclear deterrent and it was given away.
Yes years from now, this will be seen as a mistake that should have seen stronger and quicker intervention and will be forever studied by historians, especially as the horrors and scope behind the scenes get fully unearthed. I stand by that.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but claiming I am polluting this thread with zero attempt for discussion simply for wishing for stronger intervention, while you were wishing for Ukrainians to surrender at the onset of the war to save yourself some sleep?
You were wishing for Ukrainians to roll over and die and accept their genocide just so you can sleep soundly.
Kindly #### off with your bull####.
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I was wishing for Ukrainians to roll over and die? Hmmm. Pretty sure I didn't say that because that would be so stupid.
And what's with the Musk comment? Are we taking Elon Musk? What have I missed that I have no idea what you're talking about when you randomly bring up the ceo of a car company and what does it have to do with me? Maybe he's flapping his gums on twitter? Idk, I'm not on twitter.
But yes, I stand by my comments. I think they're the prudent approach and I guess I feel somewhat vindicated in my position considering the entire power of the western world is operating in the exact way I think they should operate. Every government, army and intelligence agency would read your comments and mine and believe my approach is the best one. And it is. Your plan is dangerous AF and, frankly, not worth the risk to billions more people than just containing this war to Ukraine, which is what we're currently doing.
Is this approach fair to Ukrainians? No, of course not. It's terrible. But antagonizing Russia into going nuclear would make things orders of magnitude worse for
billions of people. As I said - and you so kindly quoted - there are no-win situations sometimes and this is one of them.
And are you disputing my contention that we're seeing a highly propagandized version of events there? I mean, is Ukraine winning or are they victims of genocide? I don't know if they're winning. They're certainly a formidable foe for Russia - particularly with all the help from the west - but they're being bled to an unimaginable degree.
It's probably fair to say we both don't want war there and I can assure you I don't want Ukrainians to die in spite of you somehow discombobulating what I've written to then barf that misrepresentation onto the forum. So what do we do? I think we should stay the course doing what we're doing to make this as miserable as we can for Russia and give Ukraine the best chance of success.
Do you think western armies should mobilize and directly engage Russia? I don't want to out words in your mouth, but it sounds like that's what you think the best plan is. To me, that's a recipe for more bloodshed for millions (at least) of people and the ruin of economies, so I have a hard time understanding your logic (or lack thereof). For now, it's contained to a regional war and I'm opposed to the west escalating beyond that. If a nato country is attacked, though, let's go.