Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
I think it would be through a very naïve lens you'd have to be viewing this conflict to not understand why western countries aren't doing more. I don't think it is a money thing and I don't think it is a spare-our-own-forces thing. It is - as has been explained to you every second page for months on end - a nuclear thing.
First of all, Russia does not have a "no-first-use" policy, meaning they are willing to use nuclear weapons even if they haven't been engaged with them first. They did have a no-first-use policy up until 1993, but then reversed it at that time.
Their policy states they reserve the right to use nuclear weapons, " in case of aggression against Russia with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is threatened."
Western nations joining the fray would perfectly fit Russia's criteria to use nuclear weapons.
Would they? I don't know. I think they would, personally. If Russia is engaged by the superior armies of western nations that would absolutely put the existence of the state in jeopardy. They have a magic button they could press to take numerous armies and states down with them.
If you don't think they would, that's fair, but what an enormous fataing world-changing civilization-ending risk to take.
Ukraine has the losing hand here. They're the ones taking it on the chin every minute of the day because we're not willing to back Putin that far into a corner. It's horrible, but it doesn't mean we have a reasonable way to help much beyond what we're doing. Between HIMARS and all the rest of the arms, intel, logistics and training the West is supplying to Ukraine, I'd say we're already dancing a little on the cusp of what Putin could reasonably argue is jeopardizing his state's existence.
So in 50 years will people look back at this and think we were sitting on our hands? Maybe morons, but there is more at play than us eating popcorn and watching a slaughter as you imply over and over and over and over and over and over again throughout this thread. It's polluted with your armchair quarterbacking and you're like Teflon sprayed in PAM letting every explanation or colour added to the situation slide right off. I guess you're just not mentally equipped to understand the situation beyond a very basic and ignorant level and perhaps you never will be. |
OK Chamberlain (or should I say Musk).
We all know why the west hasn't directly intervened, you haven't triggered an epiphany by stupidly telling us the obvious Russia has nukes. Oh golly, no one knew that! They can even use them first? Wow!
France and Britain didn't stop Hitler for fear of a repeat of WWI. Not only did they not stop it, but France was lost in the process and made it so much more worse. What do you think should have happened? More appeasement?
Appeasement does not work. Never has, never will. It merely emboldens and kicks the bucket down the road.
You are using the same bull#### thinking that people used before the war. Maybe just give Putin Crimea and the territories he wants and he will be content, do some finger wagging. He has nukes after all and could nuke us if we intervene.
Putin would never go to war and invade Ukraine, he must be bluffing, just appease him a bit and he will be content. Oh he actually invaded? Ukraine is lost surely, do some more finger wagging and make sure to restate how bad this looks, maybe kick them off SWIFT. Ukraine should just surrender rather then fight (your words). He has nukes after all and could nuke us if we intervene.
Oh Putin is actually losing and didn't take Ukraine in 3 days? Time to parrot Elon Musk and say Ukraine should just give up the so called annexed regions to appease Putin and satisfy your fear of being nuked or heavens forbid think of something that could negatively happen to you if gets enraged further. He has nukes after all and he could nuke us if we intervene.
There are some conflicts that simply cannot be avoided no matter how hard you try. It should be painfully obvious by now that this will not end with Putin saying "Ok you win Ukraine" and he is hellbent on exterminating as many Ukrainians as possible. You give Ukraine everything they need, because Putin will use any excuse or fabricate one to escalate regardless. Only reason he hasn't use nukes yet is it means the end of him, which has been made very clear by the US and NATO.
I do fully expect him to use nukes at some point with or without NATO involvement. He has already invented a casus belli with the annexation of the 4 regions. He can already use nukes according to Russia's nuke policy right now. So what the hell are you blabbing on about their policy for? They already have the conditions. If he sees the end is near, he's still going to use them rather then accept defeat.
You are trying to reason with someone who uses the terms "denazification" and "desatinization" of Ukraine and who has already mobilized his country in a 'fight against NATO'. Do you think he is planning to stop even when he has clearly lost? How the #### do you think this ends? With Putin saying sorry and singing kumbaya with everyone?
Let's also not forget that Ukraine is in this position due to the world working to remove the nuclear arsenal they possessed on their territory with a treaty and security assurance that Russia has since rescinded. Ukraine had a nuclear deterrent and it was given away.
Yes years from now, this will be seen as a mistake that should have seen stronger and quicker intervention and will be forever studied by historians, especially as the horrors and scope behind the scenes get fully unearthed. I stand by that.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but claiming I am polluting this thread with zero attempt for discussion simply for wishing for stronger intervention, while you were wishing for Ukrainians to surrender at the onset of the war to save yourself some sleep?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Does anybody in CP want their kids heading over to fight for Ukraine against Russia? I don't. I'm also concerned admitting them into NATO makes for a more dangerous world; not less.
I can really see how appeasement was the first strategy against the Nazis. I mean, I look at this and hope that 1. Putin is repelled by Ukraine or 2. If he isn't that he stops there. I definitely don't want more countries joining this because I don't see how it ends well for anyone.
We can't forget nuclear weapons are on the table here. Say we all join in and push the Russians out of Ukraine and then do what we can to neuter their military some more so they can't just restart the fight when we leave...what do we think Putin will do? He'll using fataing nuclear weapons.
Nuclear weapons have us over a barrel. If you go charging into Russia, they will be used. Why wouldn't they? He'd be crazy not to use them at that point.
If this war is such that Ukraine is going to lose, maybe they surrender and we all mourn the brutality and lack of fairness in the world, but the world gets to keep turning and we don't nuke a city or 20.
Sometimes there are no-win situations. I think this is one. I believe we are seeing pro-Ukraine propaganda that makes some of us think Ukrainians are putting up a bigger and better fight than they are. I think in the end, they lose. When that point becomes the blatantly obvious outcome, they need to surrender and call it a day. Or live with war and guerilla war for the next decade or two. Sucks balls.
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You were wishing for Ukrainians to roll over and die and accept their genocide just so you can sleep soundly.
Kindly #### off with your bull####.