Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee
I’m not debating any of that. This isn’t really about opinions or what’s right or wrong. We should focus on the facts:
1. Putin has decision making to launch a nuke.
2. Putins opinion therefore matters
3. His justifications, whether or not we agree with them, therefore matter
all of the above IF we want to avoid nuclear war. We can say he’s bluffing. We can say we don’t believe him. We can say we want to save Ukraine, that’s all fine.
I’m saying it’s a bad idea to keep testing a psychopath who has said he will use nuclear weapons if necessary. And we also know that continuing to provoke Russia, in his mind, is what could lead to such outcome.
Allowing Ukraine in lot NATO will be an escalation not de-escalation. It very likely leads to nuclear war based on what we know now.
Again regardless of right wrong etc. we need to be calculating with what outcome we want to avoid.
What do we want more, Ukraine in NATO or avoidance of nuclear war?
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I think to not allow Ukraine into NATO because you fear Putin may use Nukes is foolish for a few reasons:
1) This isn't and has literally never been about NATO and Ukraine. This way is one of conquest and Putin wants Ukraine to be part of Russia. It was and won't stop with Ukraine. Putin was very clear that Ukraine was nothing more than Russia by another name. The western threat stuff is just posturing to justify the war to his people.
2) Putin is threatening Nukes if Western powers continue to give Ukraine weapons. He hasn't used them yet, so what's the line? If Kim Jong Un says he'll nuke if America doesn't withdraw from South Korea, should they? You act in your country's best interests with existential threats as about the only clear line. Otherwise appeasement merely encourages bad behaviour
3) If you waffle due to the threat once, you are encouraging further threats. Giving a bully your lunch money once doesn't deprive you of one lunch. You'll never eat another lunch at school.
I don't think Ukraine should join NATO yet, for the reasons opendoor elaborated on, but not because of nuclear threats.