[Claeren]

The level to which you have purposely not engaged in any thought regarding my post makes me hesitate to respond to the third part.

Ironically, the capitalist country treated it as a secret tax, not the socialist one.

What capitalist country? The US is not a capitalist country, it is a country with mixed economy, the system you know you chose. Your views are kind of contradictory, arent they?

Come on, America is THE capitalist country in the history of the world. The mixed system they have is:

1) The least comprehensive in the first world.
2) Lacks sincere effort in implementation.
3) Was almost totally built up as a response to communism, and the threat of quite literally social revolution. (Your opposition to stronger socialism is ironically, at least to a point, also part of this same ideological push) The programs were merely a concession of the wealthy to maintain the social contract of control through the cold war, NOT about human justice and equality like in the rest of the world.

In other words, it should not be a surprise that the programs fail, are wasteful, or that they would sabotage and steal from the pension plan funds. It is the American experience specifically and not social-programs themselves that are the failure (relative to all Americans not the wealthy controlling few, for them it is quite the success, no doubt).

The way the free market deals with old age guys? DEATH. Rotting bodies in the streets. Ghettos. Beggars. Or at least the death squads hired by the rich to clean up the problem once it annoys them enough to make the investment worth while. (In other words the industrializing world 300-50 years ago.)

I hope this is intentionally exaggerated comment and you don’t actually believe that freedom and man`s reason deals with old age guys like that. Because that belief is more dangerous than you may think. To answer your questions – voluntary interpersonal cooperation helps where coercive authority failed miserably.

gahahahaha... who is being idealistic now?

ALL i said was that a MIXED system (not communism) builds stability but maintains markets. History PROVES that absolute capitalism destroys lives and results in incredibly horrible living conditions for the poor. It also shows that those poor are not lazy but are born into a perpetual and growing cycle of poverty from which there is no escape. Only someone having never tasted such horror could be so naive. Travel in American-dominated totally capitalist 3rd world nations as i have and you will see what i am saying is not exaggeration. People living in stinking swamps while their neighbours drive BMW's. Their unclothed children cowering in piles of sh*t under the shadows of razor wire lined walls guarded with M-16's. Meanwhile the tax rate is low and no healthcare, pension plans, or welfare, and the rules lax! Way to go, capitalist utopia!! If only those poor people would work harder and use reason through their lives they would be able to provide for themselves! gah....

However, you have not explained why we should be forced to save for our own retirement? Why there should be an obligatory pension fund system? Why not leave it to an individual?

And yes, everyone should pay the consequences of their own action. What is so strange about it?

I did exactly that in my post, but you told me i was just exaggerating and now tell me in the next breath i have not done so... ??

It is not strange, it is just horrible. You are not grasping what it means to not have money at all and no way to get it. Big reality check for you, you DIE. It is not exaggerating, that is what happens when you homeless, with no food, and no medical care. There is no other option.

What are you arguing, that massive charity organizations will fill the government void and help all thesew poor souls out? How is that different then now? Are people not just going to continue to be lazy as you say?

Your entire argument hinges upon the logic that the fear of death and poverty are so great that people will no doubt 'logically' provide for themselves. Unfortunately that means two things. One, is that the fear must be REAL and that means unprepared people are dying and falling into poverty and living horrible lives. IF they are not then there is no fear and your logic fails. Secondly, that fear f the future mandates action now. Unfortunately again, millions and millions of people, the majority no doubt of America, is one paycheck away from absolute collapse. It does not matter to them if they are 'logically supposed to save', they need to feed their children and gas up their car TODAY. They are left worrying about the future when it comes and in your world that means the first instant they are sick or the moment they grow old they are thrown to the wolves for not 'thinking ahead'.

Has it ever occured to you why communism took hold in Europe and Asia? Could it have been massive uprising by the underclasses fed up with their lot in life?
Free market = Massive disparity = eventual revolution of the underclasses
Communism = Massive disparity = eventual revolution of the underclasses
Mixed system of limited socialist mechanism working within an otherwise free market economy = Massive but barible disparity = relative peace, with open and stable markets for the industrious to exploit yet the opportunity to just live a life for the less capable or 'driven'. for profits.

I hope you do realize that eventhough there is (or there will be eventually, but for a sake of the argument) a disparity on free markets, the living standards are far higher than living standards in communist countries? BTW speaking of classes, is marxism still being taught on canadian universities? Libraries on liberal universities all over the world are the only places of permanent revolution.

Ah.... that is what i said! Communism works as well as your perfect idealistic world, in other words it doesn't!! You are the other side of the same frikkin coin! American neo-conservatism is the new communism! Fear of anything that isn't free, fattening, and/or moral (aka: american-conservative-christian).

I am saying a mixed system allows a balance. Capitalism is allowed to flourish while its detrimental effects on the underclass is mitigated enough for simple survival through limited social programs. I am not saying anyone should simply provide a middle class income for the lazy, but simply that failure to do anything but rely on 'volunteers and charity' is a recipe for social collapse in the same fashion as it struck the communist world.

And what are you saying, Marxism is banned in America? That studying the mistakes of history has no benefit?

I know which i chose

Thats OK. But why do you force your choice upon the others? In other words, why do I have to (if I was a Canadian) be a part of your ”choice” (a part of CPP)?

You are saying the same thing.


Claeren.