[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

If He changes the outcome, you don't have free will.



You want free will, don't you? He gives you a choice, you can choose your eternity. It's the kind of love every parent gives their child when they send them out into the world.

Ah Fly...you should get into politics the way you spin things...seriously!

If God is...

a) omniscient - he knows of all evil

b) omnibenevolent - he desires the abscence of evil

c) omnipotent - he has the power to eliminate evil

then why is there evil?

Or better yet....do you believe that your God is not an Omnimax God? You do understand the actual meaning of the words above?

What say you about this......(Not my words and not necessarily all of my thoughts)...but certainly thought provoking.

1. All major religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, assert god is creator of all, omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent, (all-powerful), omnibenevolent (all-good).
2. These claims are derived from sacred books, all claimed to be revelations about god by god to us.
3. The four mentioned assertions about god above are explicit in sacred books, bible ,quran, vedas, et al.

5. If god is to create a universe, he knows what his proposed universe will have in it given his initial starting conditions. This is because god is all knowing and explicitly is said to have foreknowledge of all events, even future events.

6. Thus if god contemplates creating a universe he will see that in 14 billion years there will be a man named John Smith who will commit rape on June 23, 2008.

7. God must then decide if he will allow that act to occur or not. If so, it will occur with his express knowledge and approval. If not he will change initial starting conditions so that act will not occur. That act consists of conglomerations of atoms in space and time, their constituent particles, in time and space to the smallest quark in Planck space and time.

8. All acts of all sentient beings are thus foreseen, and either allowed with god's full approval or not allowed. All underlying physical events to the smallest details are planned by god to the smallest detail.

9. Thus the Universe is planned to the smallest detail by God and God alone, personally, purposefully and knowingly.

10. Thus we have no free will and can have no free will in the strongest possible sense, no free will is possible even in principle. Omnigenesis, god's creation of all events to the smallest quark means only god decides what happens and how it happens.

11. If god is omnipotent, he is not limited by mundane physical laws of this universe.
As noted by Boethius and Augustine. Thus God is not limited by time, in fact, he must then have created time.

12. But that means he must have created all at once. For god there is no time, no past, present future, only a now. So all he creates must be created in now, all at once, to the smallest detail.
All our acts, out atoms and quarks, all of us in all of space and time to the smallest detail.

13. Again, omnigenesis, creation of all in total detail, free will is impossible for us.

14. Thus free will is impossible if god creates all, and is either omniscient or omnipotent.
in both cases omnigenesis holds.

15. God is said to be all good, perfectly good.

16. But if moral evil exists and free will does not all moral evil is god's doing, not ours.

17. But since god is defined as all good and god is if creator of all and omnipotent or omniscient responsible for all moral evil, god is morally evil. Contradiction between revealed claims. God cannot exist.

18. Further more, this makes all of god's other claimed attributes questionable. Why create one man saved and good, another damned and evil? Why then, heaven and hell or salvation and damnation? Claims god loves us, is concerned for us and is merciful or just, is incomprehensible.
There is no logic to this. Claims god is good and omniscient and omnipotence and creator ship of god combines to destroy all possible free will, why does an all good god not create us all good, and all saved? All logic, all reason, all rationality is destroyed with such a God and the world is incomprehensible.

With such a god we can only achieve total metaphysical nihilism. All this proves is that god is a supremely bad idea and cannot be true. This means the religions of 4.3 billion people are false.

The idea that revelation shows god is omni-everything and creator of all is obviously false,
provably false and cannot be saved without abandoning claims of revelation.