Quote:
Originally Posted by Zevo
I think people are confusing best 2 way forward with the best defensive forward.
Look at Guy Carbonneau, Pavel Datsyuk, and Anze Kopitars numbers. I picked them because they are all multiple Selke winners from different eras and were considered the gold standard for defensive forwards.
In 87/88 Carbonneau didn't crack the top 50 in scoring(he was 135th) and was 35th in +/-.
Interestingly in Datsyuks case he was near the top in both categories in his first two wins but his third straight win he was 26th in scoring and 21st in +/-.
Kopitar meanwhile was 17th in scoring and 2nd in +/- in his first win and 7th in scoring and 15th in +/- on his second win.
I think it has changed abit over the years where they now need show some offense compared to a few decades ago when it was all about defense but +/- doesn't seem to be the definitive stat here.
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I don't have strong feelings here - Bergeron is a worthy winner, Lindholm (as the center and therefore in many ways the defensive engine of the league's best two way line- this season) also merits attention
I will say the award sort of pivoted around 1993
prior to that the award went to guys that were mostly prototypic 'defensive' forwards, at a time where frankly we had no metrics to really go on- so mostly reputation- meaning Bob Gainey if he was around, or Bob Gainey ex-linemates or clones (Jarvis , Ramsay), or someone who happened to shutdown Gretzky one time (Kasper) , guys like that
around 93 (with Gilmours monster offensive year with Toronto- although really Gilmour with the 89 flames was the kind of guy we think of now in the Bergeron/Lindholm mold) it started going mostly to centers who were really good (two way guys) who weren't good enough to be in the Ross or Hart conversations (there was a bit of a transitional phase here where conventional 'defensive forwards' like Peca or Madden or Lehtinen won the award- but guys like that don't win much anymore). when guys like Kesler, Toews, O'Reilly win it its for years when they are at or around PPG