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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
Just so were clear I am not saying everytime a dude slept with a drunk or stoned girl it was rape, what I am saying is everytime it might have been and his arse is utterly hooped if she wakes up the next day with little memory of how the night went down and is horrified that she is in bed naked with a guy she's never seen before.
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That's a good clarificiation, but pretty different what you said before.
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Every one of us guys has to decide how we navigate a rapidly changing world where the concept of consent has evolved and will continue to evolve on a case by case basis, none of this has anything to do with a woman's right to choose how they pursue their own sexuality, a woman has the absolute right to choose to be beaten bound and violently penetrated if they so choose, I just choose not to be the dude that takes the risk that I have to explain beating and penetrating a tied up woman, it helps that that isnt my thing anyway I suppose.
'Most of the time it was fine' is a poor legal and moral defense
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I get where you're coming from, but I think this has a lot to do with what circles you move in.
I know from experience that when you're dating a woman with certain type of issues who has a problem with alcohol and who's totally into your whole "bad boy" thing, it can be basically impossible to draw nice clean lines between what's okay and what's not. You can lose sight of what's okay because SHE has even less of a clue what she actually wants and likes.
(The last part of this post not a response to anyone in particular.)
I have no idea what exactly was going on between ERW and MM. I assume that probably Manson did something wrong (at least morally if not legally) because of what ERW has said and what other people have said about his treatment of her.
However I don't see a reason to assume that MM did something wrong in literally every specific situation where ERW thinks he did wrong. That whole music video thing sounds like such a messy time for ERW that she might very well remember things completely different from how things actually happened. Memories are, after all, extremely unreliable. Both things could very well true at the same time; MM treated ERW horribly, but that one situation might not be one of those times.
I also don't think it really matters much whether this or that thing specifically happened exactly like ERW said, since this isn't a courtroom. I think people often get hung up in thinking that an abuser must have been a complete monster 100% of the time. That's not usually how life goes. Abusers aren't necessarily irredeemable monsters.
One big reason why people end up staying in abusive relationships is that the abuse usually isn't constant, and the abuser might even at times be genuinely sweet and caring. This is especially true if substance abuse is a related problem. Another common thing that happens in abusive relationships is that the abused develops some extremely bad behavior patterns, and trauma victims are also prone to develop false memories.
This is one reason why a good lawyer team can so often just tear abuse victims apart in court, and why it's so easy to discredit them in media. Their stories often aren't 100% consistent and they very commonly say some stuff that's certifiable false.
It doesn't mean they weren't abused.