Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
Timeline
Pre- 1783:-; Ottomans, Byzantine, ancient tribes
1783 - 1917 - Russian empire, capital St.Petersburg
1917-1954 Russian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital Moscow
1954-1991 - Ukrainian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital - Moscow
1991-2014 - Ukraine, capital Kiev
2014+ not included
209 years under St.Petersburg&Moscow rule
23 years under Kiev rule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
Putin's speech wasn't the easiest to keep track of, but he surely did say that NATO is a big part of the reason for invasion. He specifically mentioned:
1. Broken promise to not accept eastern countries (which is true)
2. Missiles that can reach Moscow in 5 minutes if located in eastern Ukraine (no idea if true)
3. Ochakovo naval base renovated by NATO (somewhat true, might be embellished)
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Again, he's attacking Ukraine over something Ukraine did not do. Not NATO, Ukraine.
Russia has also literally already conquered parts of Ukraine before any of these fresh excuses became "relevant", and it has no problem putting their weapons right on the border and over it. You're just going around repeating the false notion that Ukraine has no right to defend itself against Russian aggression, and claiming that a country under constant threat of Russian occupation should not try to defend itself.
Again, you're being ridiculous, and yes, Putins demands are not a realistic starting point for negotiations, because there is no desire to negotiate on his part. He's just making threats and demands backed by threat of even more violence.
At least 14,000 Ukrainians have already died in the last decade in wars against Russians and pro-Russian troops armed and supported by Russia. Crimea is already lost to Ukraine, as is effectively East Ukraine. 1.5M have fled from their homes, before this fresh round of excuses. Over 100.000 Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine from Transnistria to Belarus to Crimea, and Putin just declared that Ukraine isn't even a real country.
Yes, it's ridiculous to tell Ukrainians that they're not allowed to seek military allies, and it's ridiculous to suggest at this point that other countries, including NATO, are somehow not allowed to aid Ukraine in their continuing fight against Russia.