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Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Okay, that's some elitism talking. Every faculty holds their students to the same expectation. It's mandated through the accrediting body, and maintained with pride by most instructors. You are going to have some instructors who grade easier than others, but those exist in all faculties and are not restricted to one faculty. Grade average is also not a good measure as you may have a bunch of boneheads in a school that drag the average down or a bunch of really good students who low the curve.



Not a lot more work, just different work. Classes are normally designed to have a theoretical component and then an application component. The lab is your application component. In other majors, like the humanities, your application component is usually defined in some type of activity, like a formal presentation or a scholarly research paper, which is just as much work as lab time. You're not stuck in a lab doing work, but you're doing research and writing a 20 page paper on a given subject, which means you're stuck at your desk reviewing journal articles and papers. Different work, but just as demanding.



Yeah, I can see that. Econ is a much more useful degree than biology, from just strictly the job possibilities. There is a little bit of irony here when you consider that Economics is actually classified under the Faculty of Arts at UofC, and the idea presented that the Faculty of Arts being soft or easy.

Also, what is an unofficial minor? This made me giggle a bit. You either have one or you don't. It's like being unofficially pregnant. You have to declare and then you have to complete the requirements for the minor, which is usually 30 credits or more in a field of study, and 2/3rds of those credits being above introductory level (100/200 level). Usually this would require extra course work as you are doing significant work outside your science guided pathway, but I do see the BSc in Biological Sciences does give you opportunity to exploit 30 credits in Economics (Faculty of Art) without extra coursework (9 classes in Econ at the 300 level to meet all requirements) if you complete all breadth and non-major field requirements together. Crazy that if you were going down the road to not declare a minor.



Again, this is all perception. A BSc in biology has no more math than a BSc in Psychology. In fact, many of the class requirements for the degree are very similar for requisites in the science requirements. More on this later.



I can see someone making this argument, but I wouldn't. Math is the foundation of science and the language that allows scientists to communicate about their specific fields of study. Math is used to make clear definitions, comparisons, and validation of research. I'm not a math guy myself, and struggle with some of the advanced maths, but it is important to have that foundation and ability to present information. The complexity of the field of study and the importance is brings to every aspect of sciences - hard or soft - makes it a core foundation, and very much a field of study all unto itself and definitely meets the defection of a science. That's why is part of the Faculty of Science at almost all institutions.

You raised a point that made me want to show an example of degree requirements and why this argument of hard/soft science and BSc/BA is more smoke and mirrors than it is reality. Let's contrast this "tough" biology BSc with that "easy" BSc in psychology. All reqs from the University of Calgary.

Biology Requirements (*pre-reqs being completion of high school course work)

18 units of Biology - 241 (Intro to Energy Flow*), 243 (Intro to DNA, Inheritance, Evolution*), 311 (Principles of Genetics), 331 (Intro to Cellular and Molecular Bio)), 371 (Comparative Bio between Plants and Animals)

6 units of Chemistry - 201 (General/Intro Chem: Structure and Bonding*) or 211 (General/Intro Chem: Structure and Bonding*), 203 (General/Intro Chem: Change and Equilibrium*) or 213 (General/Intro Chem: Change and Equilibrium*) - The contrast between the 0X and 1X classes being a concentration on critical thinking, meaning 0X are remedial classes.

6 units - One of Mathematics 249 (Introduction to calculus*)or 265 (University Calculus I) or 275 (Calculus for Engineers and Scientists) and one of Mathematics 211 (Linear Methods I*) or 213 (Linear Algebra I*) or 267 (University Calculus II) or 277 (Multivariable Calculus) or Statistics 327 (Statistics for Physical and Environmental Science)

6 units - Computer Science 217 (Introduction of Computer Science [structured programming]*) or Data Science 211 (Programming with data - basic programming), and Computer Science 219 (Introduction of Computer Science [object oriented programming]); or Computer Science 231 (Introduction of Computer Science [structured programming]) and 233 (Introduction of Computer Science [object oriented programming]); or Geology 201 (Principles of Geoscience*) and 202 (Application of Geoscience); or Physics 211 (introduction to Mechanics*), or 221 (Introduction to Mechanics*), and 223 (Introduction to Electromagnetism and Thermal)

3 units - Biochemistry 393 (Introduction to Biochemistry)

3 units - Chemistry 351 (Organic Chem I)

3 units - Chemistry 353 (Organic Chem II) or option

15 units - From the Field of Biological Sciences

12 units - From the Field of Biological Sciences at the 400 level or higher

18 units - Breadth Requirement: Options from faculties other than the Faculty of Science, excluding courses in Table I. Of these, at least 6 units must be from the Faculty of Arts. Science 311 may be counted among the courses from other faculties.

15 units - Non-Major Field Requirement: Options that are not in the Field of Biological Sciences

15 units - Options

Psychology Requirements (** math or stats heavy)

6 units - Psychology 200 (Principles of Psychology I*), 201 (Principles of Psychology II)

6 units - Psychology 300 (Research Methods and Data Analysis in Psychology I**), 301 (Research Methods and Data Analysis in Psychology II**)

6 units - Psychology 345 (Social Psychology), 375 (Brain and Behaviour)

9 units - Psychology 321 (Industrial and Organizational Psychology), 349 (Language Development), 351 (Developmental Psychology), 353 (Psychology of Aging), 365 (Cognitive Psychology), 369 (Sensation and Perception), 373 (Motivation), 383 (Personality), 385 (Abnormal Psychology).

3 units - Psychology 400 (Applied Research Methods**), 415 (Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology**), 425 (Human Factors), 427 (Environmental Psychology), 430 (Psychophysiology in Health Research), 435 (Behaviour Therapy), 478 (Behavioural Neuroscience), 504 (Directed Research in Psychology), 505 (Directed Research in Psychology).

15 units at the 400 or 500 level from Courses Constituting the Field of Psychology.

21 units - Biology 241 and 243 (same as the Bio req); Chemistry 201 or 211 and 203 or 213 (same as the Bio req); Mathematics 249 or 265 (same as the Bio req) and one of 211, 213, 253, 267; Physics 211 or 221 or 227 (one class less than the Bio req).

45 units to a maximum of 60 units in Courses Constituting the Field of Psychology.

Options are from those offered with the Co-operative Education program, so outside of the psych major.

There really isn't a significant difference in reqs. Once you get past the lower division you then making the Psych does require a much heavier load in higher level upper division classes, and the work in those classes can be brutal, so that needs to be weighed out. No lab work, but significant research which is time consuming and tedious. The BA is the same, just without the 21 units of Biology, Mathematics, and Physics. The difference there is usually more of a focus on Research Methods and Stats. The UofC catalogue for Psych courses is quite impressive, and you could spend five to six years just doing undergrad level classes with a regular load. They have some beasts in there as well, so on paper it looks like a pretty good program. The proof would be in the execution by the faculty, but that is the same for every school.

I think the problem here is that people take an Intro Psych class and think that's what all psych classes are like. It would be like taking an Intro Biology class and thinking that was all there was to biology. Digging deeper, things get way more complex and difficult. It is the same across all schools. And let me tell you, 400 level stats is waaaaaaay tougher than any of the pre-req math classes you'll be exposed to. Same with classes like Abnormal Psych, Qualitative, Design and Analysis, Neuropsych, etc. No degree is easy to achieve if the school is worth a damn and makes their students prove they understand theory, can apply that knowledge, and display a mastery of the subject matter. That's where the downfall lay.

Not all science courses are created equal. I know at UVic, there were special biology "for psychology major" coursers. Also you are likely talking about the BSc psych route, which I would expect to be somewhere between a BA Psych degree and a more traditional science degree.

I definitely do not agree that all faculties have the same marking average. For example, in Engineering, at least half the class had failed out after year two. There were specific thermodynamics course where the average was a fail, and even among students who continued into their 3rd year, it was most common to take the course 2-3 times before passing. Also, as I stated I actually did 2 years of econ courses. My marks were considerably better in those courses, and the class average was 5-10% higher than the bio courses I took.

Even in Biology, which wasn't nearly as hard as engineering, you'd see 1/3 of the students move onto easier degrees by the end of 1st year. Meanwhile, you'd see most humanities courses actually increase their numbers throughout the course of years 1-2.

I do agree that there are certainly some higher end BSc pysch degrees, which are very difficult to attain. However, there are also certain humanities courses where you can get through relatively easy with a C+/B- average and do a very small amount of work. The same isn't true of any hard science degree. This is of course a generality. Some specialized humanities programs will be more difficult than any general science degree.