[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Spoiler!

These are the types of guys CRA was looking into blitzing a few years ago. That was the issue with the CRA demanding the commercial customer list from Home Depot. Anyone who was buying a crap ton of stuff from there at major discount but somehow not really paying taxes are likely going to get blitzed hard if they can't prove what they used the materials for.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6036682/c...my-home-depot/

The underground economy is estimated to be worth around $50 billion a year in Canada. Even conservatively at 10% on average (ie: You can't get them all), that's 5 billion in uncollected taxes per year.

I do not believe that we have an overwhelming about of taxes lost per year like the USA. Panama papers wise, lots of posters are just talking out of their ass in terms of what they thing is being dodged.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cra-p...ears-1.5974690

CRA has recovered around 21 million via 35 of 200 cases.

Of the stashed money, 540 of the 900 cases identified filed appropriate taxes and didn't warrant an audit or around 60%. It's not every single individual that was identified was hiding income. That leaves around 360 cases where CRA needed to take an extra look. 21 million divided by 35 cases x 360 = around $200 million. That's quite a bit of dodged taxes, sure, but that's a one time thing via multiple years worth of dodging. The underground economy in Canada is arguably worth at least 5x that amount PER YEAR ($5 Billion / $200 million).

Extra taxes on the ultra rich rather than targeting the underground economy in Canada is like cutting down your orchard for a tiny bit of extra lumber income and screwing yourself over long term because the orchard business is basically done. No fruits, no labour, no transportation, no fruit side business etc. That's what some others are saying in terms of the ultra rich (the majority who are seemingly paying their taxes) being squeezed to the point they just take their assets and go elsewhere.

Also, keep in mind that in a few cases, the CRA does indeed know of certain targets who are seemingly not paying their fair share. They have knowledge something is going on, but they don't have the evidence necessary for a slam dunk win (and the ultra rich are obviously not going down without a fight).

You also have to consider that CRA audit is also technically a business. If it's going to cost them $1,000 of time and effort to open up a case and collect $300 of extra taxes and interest and penalties, they lose money. Time and effort is finite, so it's better to spend $1,000 on trying to chase a $10,000 case. The margins are better. Spending $10 million for maybe a chance at $13 million in a few years is dumb from a business standpoint when CRA has so many opportunities to easily spend $10 million and get around that each year for a few years (ie: project industries).

That being said, the vast majority of morons who think they're basically small fries and think the CRA wouldn't waste the man power on them... are basically morons. The CRA doesn't need to waste human labour to flag individuals. This is automatically done via technology. Yes, the CRA is a bit of a dinosaur that still uses facsimile in the 2020s onwards, but they have computers. Those reviews and requests for information that most people easily send the necessary info to satisfy the request? Most likely nearly 100% pure automation.

Lastly, if someone is going to point at some of the ultra rich in Canada and think that everything they have is tax evaded, you're hilariously misinformed. Someone like Edwards who is resident of UK for tax purposes, still pays taxes in Canada due to the Canada UK treaty. The vast majority of his wealth is in a Canadian company, paying Canadian taxes. CNRL for instance is a publicly traded company. That's right out in the open and obviously taxed. If someone like Edwards is dodging certain Canadian taxes, the CRA hops right over to CNRL and says they have to withhold taxes before transferring funds out of Canada. It's not rocket science to enforce. Pattersons, Thomsons and Weston families? Again, right out in the open. The most that maybe they dodge is maybe some additional income/appreciation on acquisitions/sales of assets acquired using post tax income.

That's what things like the withholding tax, FAPI rules and FAD rules address. Don't know what those are? Sit down and just accept that Canada has rules to chase down foreign income to ensure taxation. Plus there's rules to ensure taxes are withheld before sending cash overseas (and how do they bypass through our oligopoly of Banks?). I mean maybe there's bitcoin, but again CRA will know how to track that soon and the amount they're trying to save is often a pittance vs the headaches that would arise from being caught. It's basically not worth it for them. I know many people have no confidence in humanity, but it isn't always as bad as they make it out to be.

Thank you for the reasonable rebuttal. Cheers!

Putting more time, resources, & effort into going after the underground economy is a great idea. 100% agree there.

I would suggest though that while the CRA has mechanisms for going after foreign money, there's a lot of tax dodging that still slips between the cracks. An estimated $20-$24 billion is lost each year due to tax non compliance. https://canadianlabour.ca/canada-sho...e-to-good-use/
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...-overview.html

I also sincerely believe that the wealthy are given too much leeway in terms of appeals, negotiating power, etc. When it comes to taxes on offshore money, it should be that the CRA determines how much you pay, and you pay it end of story. No beating around the bush with appeal processes that take years and make it not worth it for the CRA to keep pursuing many of these cases. While due process is an important thing, and our intuitions tell us that everyone should be guaranteed it, we have to call a spade a spade here and realize that the wealthy tend to abuse these processes and end up paying less than they ultimately should, because they make it too expensive & cumbersome for the CRA to pursue their cases.

The other issue is tax avoidance techniques, which are technically legal but allow a person to bring down their effective tax rate. These techniques are related to already accumulated wealth, not income, and as such are overwhelmingly used by multimillionaires & billionaires, not everyday people. The videos in the OP talk about those.

Canada does not have an estate tax, and IMO badly needs one. And in case anyone's wondering, I personally stand to lose if such a tax is implemented. That's right, I'm advocating for a policy that will have a negative impact on me personally if implemented. GASP! How can such a thing be possible??? The answer is I happen to give a damn about others, that's how.

Some point out that when a person dies, the person's assets are considered sold at that point, and 50% of the capital gains on the asset are considered income for that tax year. Some would argue that this amounts to an estate tax. I disagree. Capital gains tax and estate tax are two different things. An estate tax looks specifically at the value of the assets being inherited, where CGT looks at the amount of appreciation in the value of the asset over time.

People bring up the issue of double taxation. I'd argue it's not an issue at all. Whether you're taxed x amount twice, or 2x amount once, the end result is the same amount of tax paid. It's the same thing. A government should put in any tax system that it needs to in order to raise the revenue it needs to provide services, programs, infrastructure, etc. Any combination of taxation policies is justified, as long as the overall system is feasible and doesn't place an unreasonable burden on anyone.

So yes, time for an estate tax. For all the talk coming from conservatives about bootstraps/hard work/self determination, it does come across as ironic when they want to carve out a nice neat little exemption to those principles for those who happen to have won the birth lottery and lucked their way into being born into a family that has significant wealth.

Raising the GST to curb consumption is probably a good idea too.