[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Because had you quit because of the cost of education, like you have recommended here, you would have been saddled with that debt and then a burger flipper's salary to rely upon. There was benefit to completion.

Sorry, but I’m not recommending that people quit in the middle of their education.

What I’m recommending is that people seriously look at what the debt load will, or could, be BEFORE starting college or grad school and then determine if their desired degree, or school, or whatever, is worth that debt load.

And if the math doesn’t work out, then figure out an alternative plan. Work for a while. Take night classes. Go to trade school. Go into another field (look, I’ll be honest: I didn’t go into law to help people, I went into it for the money; others should do the same for their chosen career).

But to take out loans and get a degree from an expensive (or even a cheap) school in a field that has limited economic upside is just a bad idea all around, and far too many people do that. And then they whine about their debt load and ask for taxpayers to bail them out.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I am responsible for what happened to me to a point. My responsibility as a student is to complete my work in a timely manner. Part of the contract you engage in with an institution is they will have their faculty grade your work in a timely manner. I absorb information very quickly and work through assignments just as quickly. The faculty played rope-a-dope with me and held back final grades for KAs, preventing me from moving on to the next, then comprehensives, and then dissertation. So the amount of time wasted waiting for faculty to assess my work and provide feedback equated to a year of required content, then another year in dissertation. To me, the institution did not live up to their end of the contract and made it such that I had to stay in school for an extra 18 months, meaning an extra two years tuition. This was unnecessary and punitive IMO. Never should have been allowed and I should not have been saddled with that debt.

Anything I say in response to this would likely br seen as rude, out of touch, or offensive, so I’ll just say that yes, that does sound like a raw deal.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's a gotcha question. You seem to think that debt is negative regardless of its use. If you can't see the larger benefit of someone buying a home rather than paying for loans they can't even re-negotiate the interest rate on, then that's on you and no one else. The major difference to the over all economy is obvious.

It isn’t a gotcha question.

It is asking why are the people who are clamoring for loan forgiveness also saying that they will just go back into debt once this debt is gone?

They say that their debt is keeping them from buying a house, or starting a family, or whatever. But they don’t think that a mortgage is going to keep them starting a family or doing something else?

They want to have a house and be an adult? Why not first pay off your existing debt like adults do?

Also, as I recall, you can consolidate your student loans, which is a form of “renegotiating” the interest rate. But the whole idea of negotiating an interest rate is bizarre to me. You don’t negotiate your credit card interest rate, or your mortgage rate (yeah, you can refinance, but the rate at which you do so is largely what it is), or your car loan or so on.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

No one gains a larger benefit out of this except the predatory interests (and this includes Sallie Mae and Navient) who hook these people, promising a better life, but saddling them with crippling debt.

Using the word “predatory” reminds me of what people said of the mortgage bankers during the housing crash, when people making $30k were given mortgage loans to buy $400k houses. Sure, that was stupid, but the debtor was the one who signed the note and took out the money, only to then claim that they shouldn’t be held responsible for their own actions. Much like some of those asking for loan forgiveness are doing now.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

When the government is borrowing money at less than a quarter percent, they should be able to provide similar relief to those who have loans. Instead they hold the line firm and force borrowers into non-negotiable terms which makes the situations worse. These loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy and terms never change unless you go to private lenders, whose programs are even worse.

I don’t disagree that the interest rates should probably be lower than they are.

But…

If you want the loans to be dischargeable, then you should also expect the creditors to be much more strict in who they give the loans to. You want $75k to study art history? No. You want $300k to major in Spanish and Native American studies? No. You want $80k to study accounting but you can’t get above a C in math classes? No. The entire current system would have to completely revised, and I suspect the resulting outcome would not help many minorities, poor, or even the middle class.

Also, of course the loan terms are non-negotiable. You want the money? You accept the terms. No banker is going to negotiate student loan terms with an 18 year old anyway.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

What really annoys me about the student loan Ponzi scheme is the promise of loan forgiveness in specific programs. The government entered into a contract with individuals to forgive those loans should they meet 120 continuous payments as defined by the program. Even when people meet the requirements of the program, living up to the contract they signed, those loans are not getting forgiven. That ain’t right. These people went into jobs servicing the public on the promise that they would get benefit after 10 years. But the government is not following through on that promise. Those people that have worked hard to keep the government functioning for all of us are getting screwed. The vast majority of them took less in salary because of this benefit. This is a wrong that needs to be righted, at minimum, or the whole system needs to be burned to the ground.

Yes, the program that you speak of has been a disgrace in terms of management and follow-through and that needs to be changed and addressed.

But that program is not equivalent to outright forgiveness for everyone.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

One of the latest schemes is to go after student athletes from high school and give them a fractional scholarship for their sport, forcing the student to take out loans to cover the rest. They are preying on the dreams of athletes who never seem to weigh the potential outcomes. The vast majority of these athletes have no potential to turn their sport into a career, and because of the time commitment to practice and compete, they turn into crappy students who are at the bottom of their classes, if they pass at all. If these students come out with a degree, it is a useless one and they are at the bottom of class lists, making that degree all but useless. Ah, but the kid got to “play” for another two to four years. This Peter Pan stuff needs to stop. This is the type of stuff that should halted immediately and institutions that use these practices be sanctioned or put out of business.

I don’t disagree.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Education is the surest way to upward mobility. For people who live in poverty or depressed economic conditions, education is the only way out. So yes, if these people want to better their lot in life, they are forced to take out loans to better themselves.

Respectfully, I think that those who are bright, have good grades, and who come from depressed economic conditions can get a scholarship (or several) that would likely eliminate the need for them to take out any loans. At the very least, surely they can find at least one college that will show them the money.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I got to understand how transformational education was to entire communities, not just individuals, and also how predatory and punitive these programs can be. For people that really have choice for upward mobility, the system is clearly stack against them and is designed to keep them where they are, or locked into long-term poverty.

Then perhaps the answer is for targeted policies to address these issues, instead of just blanket loan forgiveness for everyone regardless of their economic background.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Seriously? You do know that you only get benefit from a degree if you complete that degree. Come on. You understand this. You only get to use certain degrees or become a member of a profession if you complete those degrees and meet ALL requirements of the degree. So yes, the schools have on the hook and you can’t get off. If you choose not to complete the degree you still carry that debt, and you get marginal benefit from that degree. So yes, you have to complete or you just waste your money and don’t get ahead. Not much of a choice there. You have to play by their rules. It’s their game.

I’m not going to go into this any further because any comments would likely just antagonize you.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I don’t disagree that there are SOME who would use this dodge. But these people will find a dodge no matter what. These are the type of people would just say #### it and then go on welfare. The vast majority of people aren’t like that. They want to be good contributing members of society. They want to go on and start their lives. But the way the system is setup is punitive ad prevents those people from doing just that. So while Wall Street continues to get theirs, Main Street continues to take it in the tail pipe and pay for the already rich’s expansion of their share of the economic pie. I want to see what the economic power of 42 million Americans spending that disposable income looks like. We’ve already tried trickledown economics, its time to try giving average Americans the break and watch the economy spring to life.

I think that there are other ways to accomplish your goal without mass student loan forgiveness.