[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Those who took out the loans share in the blame too.

Not necessarily. When someone is down the rabbit hole it is impossible to turn their back on completion of the degree and the cost that goes along with it. Personally speaking, I ate $50K because my institution dragged their heals on getting the process completed for me to finish my terminal degree. They had me by the nuts and knew I was not going to bail on completion of the program, because I was on the hook for the loans regardless of outcome. So yes, I had to take the debt on to complete the degree or be left with a ridiculous debt and no value from the investment of time and money.

Since this is all about you, why didn't you quit law school after two years? The debt was piling up and you could have just walked away from it? Hmmmmm? Because you wanted the terminal degree that you could later piss away and do nothing with? You still took the hit and finished. Because the other alternaltive would have been mind numbingly ####ing stupid to consider.

They could have chosen to go to a cheaper school, or pick a major that offered decent career prospects that would likely support the repayment of the loan, or so on.

How about those of us that did? I had two options to complete my Masters and PhD, from two prestigious schools, but I chose the cheapest option, because of cost. Many students do the same. Most people are responsible individuals and have got caught up in the changes in the system.

Curious that you don’t mention their role in the matter.

Because the system is set up against the student. As someone who spend half a decade as an executive officer in higher education I got to see the #### show up close, and it was appalling. Students and schools were manipulated, and the whole system adjusted to follow the for-profit model and pricing structure.

I paid my loans. It wasn’t easy. But I did it. And pretty much everyone else can, and should, do so.

Actually many can't. You're lucky. You completed a degree in an area where people actually think you provide value and would pay for those services. Frankly, I think Shakespeare had it right when it came to lawyers, and most other vocations should be held in a much high level of respect and more value placed on what they provide to society. But for some reasons lawyers make a lot of money and can generate money that a lot of other professions can't, even though those other professions provide much greater value to society as whole.

But, again, students voluntarily choose which school to attend, the amount of debt that would have be taken on to attend said school, and which subject to major in.

In some regards, yes, in other regards no. Certain degrees are only acceptable or hold sway from certain institutions. When I chose my terminal degree I made sure that I was going top ten for that particular degree. But I dis so with cost in mind. But the system worked against me and heaped an extra $50K of debt on me because of the process of completing an advanced degree. Not my choice. I finished my work in time where I could have completed in three years, instead of five, but the process comes into play. The school mandated that I eat that extra cost. NOT my choice. NOT how I wanted it to play out. It was FORCED on me if I wanted to complete the degree. That's the way the system works. Just like lawyers have to pass the bar exam to practice law, there are certain constraints in place that you are forced to meet for certain degrees, and you have to pay that price.

This is just whataboutism from a different perspective and is similarly pointless. A bad political decision should not be the basis for allowing another bad political decision.

No, it isn't. It's the reality. Both parties are responsible for the #### show higher education is, so take your whataboutism and stick it. That is the weakest #### I heard to date.

Debt that they voluntarily took out. Again, you completely ignore the students’ own role in this matter. Why is that?

Because student have no say many times. Unless they want to drop out of school and carry the debt with no benefit, they are forced to chase the paper.

A whole bunch of misguided and misinformed #### about higher education...

Which they will then presumably ask to be bailed out of too?

Yet we bailout those who intentionally wreck the system and punish those who have no say and are just forced to follow the rules put in play?

The argument is that funding tends to assist only certain groups or segments of the population. You don’t see much government money directed towards single childless adults who rent, for example.

This is so stupid I'm surprised you wrote these words. Yes, there are many programs that help the group you singled out. What is scary is that the group you singled out, the very ones we should be helping and lifting them up from the state the are forced into, are considered last resort recipients of funding because they don't have much political power. Conversely, those #######s in the 1% get gift-after-gift-after-gift to make their lives much easier. Where's your outrage to that?

Ha, I wish. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I have a really good idea because I've been on all sides of this fence. I've seen it from the borrower perspective, the lender perspective, and the institutional perspective. This is a complex issue, but one where the vast majority of students got ####ed. The system got broke, and it needs to be fixed.

When I went to college, as I recall the maximum Pell Grant amount was $2000 a semester (or maybe a year, but I think it was per semester). But that is irrelevant.

No, its not irrelevant. A lot of students survive off those Pell Grants and the fact that the cost of education has surpassed those Pell Grants is telling. You can buy your head in the sand, but when the cost of an education has escalated by a factor of five, and Pell Grants by a factor of two, it tells you how for behind the eight ball students are. I'm glad you graduated during the period where education was cost effective, but you have to understand and acknowledge that this is no longer the case. The cost of education has skyrocketed out of control because of lack of regulation.

[/QUOTE]When I graduated and started paying back the student loans, my monthly amount was around $470 a month (I consolidated all of my loans and so I had a 30 year repayment schedule). Adjusted for inflation, that is around $720 a month today. Or about the same as rent for a one bedroom apartment in a medium to low cost of living area (which, at the time, it really was for me, as the monthly loan payment was roughly the same as my monthly rent). It kept me from buying a new car, new furniture, definitely a house, and a lot of other stuff. But that is just how it went, and I paid off the loans in a bit under 9 years. [/QUOTE]

That's nothing. I pay more than twice that. Yeah, my student loans are about the same as a lot of people's mortgage payments. Do I complain? Nope. I'm responsible for that. Where I complain is where the government doesn't hold up their end of bargains (PSLF). But being a good tax payer who has a very good job, I pay my bill and don't whine about it. I apply pressure where I can and work the system. But I recognize the situation many others find themselves in, and that they got screwed over, and I'm willing to support their efforts to see the system fixed, and that includes forgiveness of loans forced on people.

Do people have higher monthly student loan payments today? Undoubtedly so. But they voluntarily took out they debt. And they can pay it back too. Sure, it will suck. But that is the deal that they made.

That's the deal that people were forced into. This is the part you refuse to understand, that people can be close the the terminus of a degree and it would be stupid for them not to complete that degree. Schools recognize this and leverage it to make money and keep enrollments up, because that is how they are judged.

Start with health care, which definitely affects everyone.

Completely different issue. Completely different argument that is even more complex than higher education.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Bro, I agree with most (if not all) of what you're saying but you gotta learn how to condense your content. Very few of us actually read that term paper.

Complex issues require complex answers. You can't distill a complex issue like student debt or health care down to a single paragraph or single line answer. There is some education that needs to happen here.

Gotta keep in mind that there's a diverse audience here, including a bunch of neurodivergents like myself. Well you don't have to keep it in mind, but don't expect a tonne of engagement if you're posting essays.

Education on complex issues is not always easy, is not always quick, and definitely is not always stated in a simple sentence. While Einstein may have expressed relativity in E=MC squared, he required a pretty substantial paper for the masses to understand the complexity of the equation. This subject matter is far from Einstein level mathematics, but it is still complex and requires significant discussion.

A little unsolicited advice from the resident lunatic. Take it as you will.

I appreciate it and try to keep things as succinct as possible.