[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't see why not. Christians think I'm going to hell, so that sort of drags me into the debate. I think if you think I'm going to hell, you should be shamed for such an outrageous, antagonistic and deplorable belief.

Speaking as a former Christian I would have found this entire premise very confusing. Stepping back into who that person was, while I believed unbelievers would be going to hell, this was not in any way the central tenet of my faith— the word "Hell" does not even appear at any point in the Apostle's creed, which is accepted by-and-large as the primary expression of all Christian belief. From my perspective, being a Christian is not something that makes me any better, or more deserving, or even any different than you or anyone else. The vast majority of Christians feel incredibly fortunate, thankful, and fairly desperate about their situation because they are not avoiding hell by any merit, but rather only by the divine loophole of grace. Christians don't tend to see a belief in Hell or the fact that people will go there as antagonistic. It is rather more of a terrifying tragedy—something awful that is avoidable.

If Christians—speaking broadly—should feel any shame, then it should be for their evaluation of "humanity" as corrupt. But then, I also don't see that much differently than thinking in fairly general terms that "people are terrible." It is a gross oversimplification, but in any given context I don't think this is a judgment that you or anyone else would disagree with. Should I feel shame for thinking from time to time that people are terrible?

But beliefs can be absurd. And Jesus being the son of God while also his own father is actually absurd, is it not? Belief in literal heaven and hell is absurd too, no? Believing you can crouch beside your bed and have god's ear to ask for his help so you get a good grade on your test is absurd, too, isn't it? I do have trouble seeing how any of the supernatural elements of Christian teachings aren't absurd by definition.

I do recognize and am sensitive to the distinction between the absurdity of the beliefs and the reason for the beliefs (indoctrination). I don't doubt had I been indoctrinated into these beliefs from a young age that I'd struggle now to get out from under that albatross. As fiery as I am on here about religion, when talking to a religious person IRL I tend to be much softer as people feel personally attacked when you question their religion too much. Here we can talk in general terms and you know it's not personal since I don't know any of you. I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but if they get hurt by counter points to your beliefs, I can live with that because it's not like we have a relationship beyond talking on here that I need/want to preserve.

That's fair. I am probably overly sensitive to it because almost my entire family and most of my friends are still extremely devout Christians. My dad still ends every conversation we have with the assurance that he is praying for me and my family. Ugh. I have yet to "come out" to most of my family because I am a blithering coward; but more recently I have been wondering if the reason my dad is so persistent in his prayers—and in letting me know that he is praying—is because he has already figured it out.

And I'm not proud of being tired of having the same conversations with religious people. I wish I found it as interesting as I used to, but now it's often boring to me because arguments for religion boil down to faith (believing something in opposition to logic) since there is obviously no evidence for the wild/absurd claims Christians make about the universe, their history, or their gods.

I am also tired of the lack of evolution in thought for typical Christians. The ones I'm sick of talking to IRL are the ones who believe the same exact hogwash they've believed since they were five years old. Some of these people have degrees and decades of life experience, yet everything related to their religion was bang on correct somehow? That's crazy and so tribal. I've made efforts to educate myself on religions. Even have a minor in religious studies, which isn't much to a scholar like yourself, but it's more educated on various religions than most people on earth, I would think. To believe so strongly in your own religion is so weird...why not head over to a Buddhist Temple, a Mosque, or a Synagogue to see what they're teaching if you need religion so bad? Why put all your faith in the religion you happened into? It bothers me when people claim to have all these answers and know the truth, but they've asked too few questions. How am I supposed to respect that perspective when it was arrived at in such a weak way?

I hear you. But isn't this more than just a religious problem? In my experience, we as humans are collectively just incredibly bad at being curious, inquisitive, or legitimately sceptical. Stumbling into our beliefs without ever asking any questions is just how we are wired, and it is really hard work to overcome.