Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community - View Single Post - [PGT] Flames lose 4-1 to Winnipeg; lose Ryan to injury

Calgary4LIfe · 02-04-2021, 11:34 PM

It is my belief that there are certain coaches that coach the game with an eye on the analytics. They want a possession type of game at all costs. It sounds good, but not every group can play that type of game. Babcock is the 'king' of this philosophy, but I argue he has always been a fairly mediocre coach who lucked his way onto the top team.

Also, don't bring up the fact that he got picked to coach Team Canada - know who was second in the running to coach? Brent Sutter when he joined the Flames. Yes, he was widely thought of as the 2nd best coach in Canada.

Give me a coach any day like Bob Johnson, Darryl Sutter and Bob Hartley. All three of these coaches have created systems according to the on-ice personnel, and all had exhaustive track records of making in-game decisions. I find it funny how Hartley in particular gets labelled as a terrible coach, when he was the only coach that actually won a playoff series. Won a cup too. He also won in every single damn league he has ever coached in. I get why he was fired - yes, he was way too harsh and difficult with the players personally, and I don't begrudge the Flames for moving on.

However, citing systems issues and having to be 'lucky' - how about people go and look at the rosters that Hartley was given - they HAD to be pretty damn lucky to win any games, but Hartley actually got that team to be a playoff team.

Give me a coach like that. Bring back Darryl (first choice for me), and if not, any other coach with a track record that can figure out a system to maximize this team's strengths and shore up the weaknesses.

If that doesn't work, blow it all up.

This is just not working IMO. I am not an anti-stats guy. My argument is that there are teams that are built to win playing the Babcock type of possession hockey. The Flames aren't built that way. Sure, you can definitely have elements there - I am not advocating that the Flames throw everything out when it comes to possession hockey and instead become a shot-blocking (though they kind of are right now!!) and stretch-pass hail mary team. Just sit down - with the players if need be - and figure out some of these answers.

I remember the Brent Sutter hockey. "Everything against the wall". Pucks could only exit along the boards (even when teams figured this out and started blocking the boards). Offence was to be generated through the cycle only. Team was the 2nd oldest and 2nd or 3rd smallest team... couldn't win a board battle outside of Iginal and Regehr to save their lives. That team would always go on a run and excite us, and they did it by playing off the rush and doing what they could do given their make-up. Remember when Brent first took over the team? Flames were winning, but Brent would come out and say how this team isn't playing in the system, and things needed to change, etc. Well, when they did play the system, they lost.

This team isn't built for puck possession. This team can't play along the boards - even Lucic somehow keeps losing his balance and falling over along the boards. This team HAS to play off the rush and needs to come up with way more set plays. Not abandon possession altogether, but figure out something different.

I think this team has to play like the Sedin-era of the Canucks (minus the vomit-inducing dives). Tonnes of set plays, a varied zone break-out structure, and different methods for different lines.

Sedins became great on the cycle. Not all their players were, however. Their zone entries were ahead of their time - first team I saw use the drop-pass on the PP. First time I saw a team regularly use a set play where defencemen just shot the puck from his end into the other end of the rink, but one or two players would already be hustling to beat out the icing. They made use of a lot of intelligent plays (and now let me wash my mouth out with soap for the next hour).

I don't see that with the Flames. All I see is slow, prodding, 5on5 possession hockey where the opposing team is set and now you have to either make a series of passes to defeat the zone trap, have Gaudreau, Backlund or Lindholm attempt to carry the puck into the zone and dangle themselves into a corner, or just dump it in and try to gain possession back.

Nesterov is a guy that I see bucking that trend. I notice him the most trying to get the puck up through the middle past the opposing forwards who are curling back to get set to a Flames forward to beat them back. I notice him making a few really nice plays to beat out the forecheck and get the puck moving the other way quicker.

I also really worry about the Playoffs. This team is well known for failing in the postseason now. So what do they do? They grabbed a really good goalie - that's awesome (no, that is seriously awesome, not sarcastic awesome). They also grabbed an inexperienced defensive defencemen (I had my reservations, but it is looking awesome now too). But they let go their best performer in the playoffs since the Hartley era in Brodie. Now they are letting their 'tough and incredibly overachieving sparkplug' in Bennett too. Say what you will about Bennett, but he does help this team win in the playoffs, and so did Brodie. I worry that this team is just going to be easier to play against.

This is a long rant. I am surprised that I have continued to dislike Ward. During Peters' first year, I heard rumours that there were teams zeroing-in on Ward as a possible new head coach. I was actually worried that they would pry him away, and wondered if he was the real 'brains' behind the bench. I don't worry about that any longer.

Putting Nordstrom out with Gaudreau and Monahan. Say what you will about Jankowski (he did look awful last year), but they kid scored 17 and 14 goals in a season for a total of 31 goals. 31 goals is the same number that Nordstrom scored over 8 seasons.. eight! Somehow Nordstrom was a possibility of working out on that top line, but Jankowski wasn't? Bennett never got a long look. Ward thought moving the team's best defensive center for a LONG look as the winger there was a good idea? Don't get me started on who he throws out at certain times in the game.

I am not saying Jankowski was going to be the messiah - I wish him well and wish he worked out better, but you would think that someone who did a really good job of scoring in a bottom 6 role without the benefit of PP time, and who scored what 6(?) 8(?) SHG in a season could have at least entered the revolving door of RW'ers on that line for a guest appearance, especially when it seems more head scratching choices are being made.

I sound angry, but I am more bewildered than anything. Come Saturday, I know I will just cheer for this team no matter what happens again. Every loss hurts a bit because it will always come as a surprise to me, because I always think this team is going to win every game. Don't let the rant above fool you - I still think this team has what it takes to win the cup.

I do, however, subscribe to the theory that "I don't know if this core is good enough to win or not, because we haven't answered the question of if this coach is good enough for the last few coaching hires". Before it comes to 'blowing it all up', I would like one more season with a competent and proven coach. I don't know who that may be (I don't think Boudreau or Gallant fit that definition - the others I liked are employed, with the only notable exception being Darryl Sutter - well, Hartley too, but even I don't wish that to happen).

I would really love to just get that one question answered during the lifetime of this core. I got my answer in 2004 with the "Iginal Era" (yes, that puck was in!). I thought this rebuild was going extremely well with the "Hartley Rebuild Years", and then everything just fell off a cliff, with a small but very bright season of being 2nd overall in the NHL, but only to get my heart ripped out with that 1st round loss to the 8th seed.

At the end of the day, this is what it means to be a hardcore fan of one team in every sport. You are likely to be upset many more years than not, and it should be expected. This team is very talented, and they can be very entertaining, but just something isn't clicking, and I believe it is the system being employed. Time will tell I guess.

02-04-2021, 11:34 PM	#250
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	It is my belief that there are certain coaches that coach the game with an eye on the analytics. They want a possession type of game at all costs. It sounds good, but not every group can play that type of game. Babcock is the 'king' of this philosophy, but I argue he has always been a fairly mediocre coach who lucked his way onto the top team. Also, don't bring up the fact that he got picked to coach Team Canada - know who was second in the running to coach? Brent Sutter when he joined the Flames. Yes, he was widely thought of as the 2nd best coach in Canada. Give me a coach any day like Bob Johnson, Darryl Sutter and Bob Hartley. All three of these coaches have created systems according to the on-ice personnel, and all had exhaustive track records of making in-game decisions. I find it funny how Hartley in particular gets labelled as a terrible coach, when he was the only coach that actually won a playoff series. Won a cup too. He also won in every single damn league he has ever coached in. I get why he was fired - yes, he was way too harsh and difficult with the players personally, and I don't begrudge the Flames for moving on. However, citing systems issues and having to be 'lucky' - how about people go and look at the rosters that Hartley was given - they HAD to be pretty damn lucky to win any games, but Hartley actually got that team to be a playoff team. Give me a coach like that. Bring back Darryl (first choice for me), and if not, any other coach with a track record that can figure out a system to maximize this team's strengths and shore up the weaknesses. If that doesn't work, blow it all up. This is just not working IMO. I am not an anti-stats guy. My argument is that there are teams that are built to win playing the Babcock type of possession hockey. The Flames aren't built that way. Sure, you can definitely have elements there - I am not advocating that the Flames throw everything out when it comes to possession hockey and instead become a shot-blocking (though they kind of are right now!!) and stretch-pass hail mary team. Just sit down - with the players if need be - and figure out some of these answers. I remember the Brent Sutter hockey. "Everything against the wall". Pucks could only exit along the boards (even when teams figured this out and started blocking the boards). Offence was to be generated through the cycle only. Team was the 2nd oldest and 2nd or 3rd smallest team... couldn't win a board battle outside of Iginal and Regehr to save their lives. That team would always go on a run and excite us, and they did it by playing off the rush and doing what they could do given their make-up. Remember when Brent first took over the team? Flames were winning, but Brent would come out and say how this team isn't playing in the system, and things needed to change, etc. Well, when they did play the system, they lost. This team isn't built for puck possession. This team can't play along the boards - even Lucic somehow keeps losing his balance and falling over along the boards. This team HAS to play off the rush and needs to come up with way more set plays. Not abandon possession altogether, but figure out something different. I think this team has to play like the Sedin-era of the Canucks (minus the vomit-inducing dives). Tonnes of set plays, a varied zone break-out structure, and different methods for different lines. Sedins became great on the cycle. Not all their players were, however. Their zone entries were ahead of their time - first team I saw use the drop-pass on the PP. First time I saw a team regularly use a set play where defencemen just shot the puck from his end into the other end of the rink, but one or two players would already be hustling to beat out the icing. They made use of a lot of intelligent plays (and now let me wash my mouth out with soap for the next hour). I don't see that with the Flames. All I see is slow, prodding, 5on5 possession hockey where the opposing team is set and now you have to either make a series of passes to defeat the zone trap, have Gaudreau, Backlund or Lindholm attempt to carry the puck into the zone and dangle themselves into a corner, or just dump it in and try to gain possession back. Nesterov is a guy that I see bucking that trend. I notice him the most trying to get the puck up through the middle past the opposing forwards who are curling back to get set to a Flames forward to beat them back. I notice him making a few really nice plays to beat out the forecheck and get the puck moving the other way quicker. I also really worry about the Playoffs. This team is well known for failing in the postseason now. So what do they do? They grabbed a really good goalie - that's awesome (no, that is seriously awesome, not sarcastic awesome). They also grabbed an inexperienced defensive defencemen (I had my reservations, but it is looking awesome now too). But they let go their best performer in the playoffs since the Hartley era in Brodie. Now they are letting their 'tough and incredibly overachieving sparkplug' in Bennett too. Say what you will about Bennett, but he does help this team win in the playoffs, and so did Brodie. I worry that this team is just going to be easier to play against. This is a long rant. I am surprised that I have continued to dislike Ward. During Peters' first year, I heard rumours that there were teams zeroing-in on Ward as a possible new head coach. I was actually worried that they would pry him away, and wondered if he was the real 'brains' behind the bench. I don't worry about that any longer. Putting Nordstrom out with Gaudreau and Monahan. Say what you will about Jankowski (he did look awful last year), but they kid scored 17 and 14 goals in a season for a total of 31 goals. 31 goals is the same number that Nordstrom scored over 8 seasons.. eight! Somehow Nordstrom was a possibility of working out on that top line, but Jankowski wasn't? Bennett never got a long look. Ward thought moving the team's best defensive center for a LONG look as the winger there was a good idea? Don't get me started on who he throws out at certain times in the game. I am not saying Jankowski was going to be the messiah - I wish him well and wish he worked out better, but you would think that someone who did a really good job of scoring in a bottom 6 role without the benefit of PP time, and who scored what 6(?) 8(?) SHG in a season could have at least entered the revolving door of RW'ers on that line for a guest appearance, especially when it seems more head scratching choices are being made. I sound angry, but I am more bewildered than anything. Come Saturday, I know I will just cheer for this team no matter what happens again. Every loss hurts a bit because it will always come as a surprise to me, because I always think this team is going to win every game. Don't let the rant above fool you - I still think this team has what it takes to win the cup. I do, however, subscribe to the theory that "I don't know if this core is good enough to win or not, because we haven't answered the question of if this coach is good enough for the last few coaching hires". Before it comes to 'blowing it all up', I would like one more season with a competent and proven coach. I don't know who that may be (I don't think Boudreau or Gallant fit that definition - the others I liked are employed, with the only notable exception being Darryl Sutter - well, Hartley too, but even I don't wish that to happen). I would really love to just get that one question answered during the lifetime of this core. I got my answer in 2004 with the "Iginal Era" (yes, that puck was in!). I thought this rebuild was going extremely well with the "Hartley Rebuild Years", and then everything just fell off a cliff, with a small but very bright season of being 2nd overall in the NHL, but only to get my heart ripped out with that 1st round loss to the 8th seed. At the end of the day, this is what it means to be a hardcore fan of one team in every sport. You are likely to be upset many more years than not, and it should be expected. This team is very talented, and they can be very entertaining, but just something isn't clicking, and I believe it is the system being employed. Time will tell I guess.