[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by #-3

I still just don't get your guys takes on TLJ. Seemingly you all just wanted a remake of ESB. To say it was a worse movie than TPM / AoTC / SoTS / RoSw / Solo just tells me you aren't giving the movie an honest interpretation, half of all Star Wars movies are hot messes without a clear purposes, and TFA would be seen as a hacky remake had it not been for the 40 year gap and the atrocities that were the prequels.

In a vacuum, TLJ is fine. It's what it becomes when you make it as the bridge movie of a trilogy.

Originally Posted by #-3

You had a Jedi Master that ran away when the going got tuff, what was his character going to be? a wise old sage waiting for the right moment to leap back into action? Why did he sit around and let billions be killed? clearly he had tuned out, there was a pretty narrow range of interpretations you could give to Lukes actions as revealed in TFA, and TLJ leaned into it. Think what you will, but it certainly wasn't out of character for Luke.

There was lots you can do. I suggest reading the treatment that leaked for TLJ that was written by JJ and his writing partner. It makes a lot more sense for Luke's character than Rian's "subversion of expectation." Make no mistake, Luke was only a mopey #### because Rian decided he should be a mopey #### because no one expected Luke to be a mopey ####.

Originally Posted by #-3

Why is it so vital to everyone that Rey is somebody? Why do we need to take the villains word in TFA a truth, and why don't we believe it in TLJ? The everyman heroic figure is a very important archetype within epic story telling. It's generally a beat that the franchise had missed out on because of Lucas' obsession with over explaining everything. I thought it was quite refreshing to hear that we didn't need an explanation for who Rey was, it seemed like a positive step away from the biggest weaknesses of Lucas.

It's originally not vital that Rey is "somebody." It becomes vital when you spend the first movie and a bit building up that she is somebody. It's almost a case of Chekhov's gun. But also, she should be somebody as a means to even try and justify just how strong she is within the universe. Again, the only reason she ended up being nobody is because Rian Johnson's "subversion of expectation."

Originally Posted by #-3

Why can't we expect enough from our story tellers to get at least a new ending to a new trilogy? Like I've said many times, when facing a sequel with the exact same start as the prior story, your second plot movement rushes you to the end of the original story for a very good reason this. If you are bothering to make a sequel you had better have something new to say. If the first part and second part directly reflect the originals, it doesn't give you a lot of space to maneuver for an original ending.

You're right, that TFA was a copy of ANH was ####. But at that point, the die is cast and you can't really pull it back... unless you just take the first movie, ignore everything and then look at the third movie coming after yours and say it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by #-3

Why do we care who if the main villain of the series is Snoke or Kylo? Is it not better that we push aside flat archetypal big bad, and actually fight off the villain who has all the time and motivation invested into him.
TFA villains = whiny baby Kylo / hacky remake emperor
TLJ villains = kill his was to the top and grab power by any means kylo.
TRoSw villains = deus ex machina and kylo struggling to fight off the urge to do the right thing.
TLJ is the only movie that bothered to try and give us a fully formed villain and you use that as a knock against the movie.

TLJ had a main villain, and then they threw it in the trash, flipped the bird to the third movie and said "Figure this one out, ####bois." Though trying to make the case that Kylo was a fully formed villain his hilarious. His back story, filled out in TLJ is just absolute garbage.

Originally Posted by #-3

Aside from the obvious mistake of having two different writer/directors, with two different visions to tell one story, TLJs overall plot was smart story telling. Outside of this, none of the criticisms you guys make of the movie are particularly valid, and it's clear to me Rian had a vision for an original story and Abrams wanted to retell the story of Star Wars, I for one hope if they are currently developing 18 new Star War properties the vast majority of them take the time to tell a new story, set within the expansive world Star Wars gave us.

Rian did have a story to tell. Except Rian didn't have a Star Wars story to tell. He just shoved into a Star Wars universe and it failed spectacularly. The new ones are going to tell new stories with their foot firmly rooted in Star Wars lore because that's what a majority of people want to see. Do we want Skywalkers in every show? No. But do I think people do want to see a story they recognize? Yep. TLJ didn't look like star wars.

Originally Posted by #-3

Finally, death of the author. Once truths are out there in the universe you are dealing with, weather or not you like them you need to integrate them into new stories. You can't just choose to have grand armies appear out of nowhere, resurrect the villain you really wanted to have, or pretend actions didn't happen because you don't like them. JJs crimes against story telling in TRoSw are far worse than anything you've brought forward and it's not Rains fault JJ choose not to engage with the text he was given to work with. You had a villain that proved he would stop at nothing to win, and a Hero that gained power & wisdom but had not yet succeeded in standing up to the villain, both running out of proxies to fight their fights for them. It's not a hard story to tell, I can't really imagine people saying there was nowhere for the story to go.

You realize JJ had to pull a new villain out of his ass to finish the trilogy because Rian killed the one that had been set up, right? You realize it was Rian not working with the text he was given to work with that started the whole thing turning into a #### show right? Like, Rian was given seven previous movies, an entire legended back log, three shows that were canon to work with and draw from as far as characterization and ideas said "Nah #### it, I'mma do this instead."


You had a villain that now made no sense, a main character that also made no sense. And then handed it off to a new director and said "Hey fix this!"


There's a reason Rian Johnson got fired from the trilogy he was supposed to do. He's a great director. He's an awful Star Wars director.