[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

This mostly comes across as a bunch of gaslighting and condescension (and yes, more strawmen and ad hominem attempts).

School must have let out. How was English 30? <-- That is condescension.

That's okay, you mostly came across as full #### and not knowing what you're talking about. I was doing my best to try and expose you to reality, but like so many millennials you have this belief of your righteousness without having any expertise, experience, or competency. <-- That is an ad hominem.

UBI is a well thought out idea, with massive support from voters, politicians, and corporations. This is one of the freshest ideas in the history of man and countries are lining up to implement the genius idea. <-- That is gaslighting.

Simple math shows that 20k/year is enough for a person to scrape by and access the bare minimum necessities. I'm not going to be gaslit into thinking otherwise.

Emphasis on simple. That's your problem. You think this is a "simple" problem for "simple math". Yes, you can "scrape by" on $20K while living in your parent's basement. Get out in the real world, and that doesn't go very far, especially if you have expectations of having a life. In fact, that $20K leaves you living in a state of poverty and subject to depression because you don't have a life and the potential for having one seems minimal. The incidence of depression and other mental illness as a result of living in poverty conditions is a well documented issue.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...stract-sec-id7

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...53829216305640

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...65032717320232

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...65032716302634

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...77953620300678

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...54139X05005987

All of these articles show a direct correlation between poverty and depression, regardless of the various locales or other variables. Living in poverty increases your likelihood of depression by by a factor of 2.1. The last thing we want to do is add to the mental health load our society is already facing. Oh, wait. We don't have to worry about that, because you killed all the programs that people with mental illness can turn to and get help to pay for UBI.

I wish we could conduct an experiment to give you the experience you're in search of. If there were a way to actually give you the experience to live your claims and make you try to live on $20K for a year. And I'm not talking as a student, I'm talking as a self-sufficient person with responsibilities (leases, bills, a menial job, etc.), and you have to make due on $1,667 a month, less taxes. It would be exceptionally difficult for you and a real eye opener. You would be an absolute wreck by the end of it. The stress that people experience while living in poverty is unbelievable and I would like to see your take on it after experiencing it for a year.

The idea that UBI should be higher than 20k/year, is certainly worth considering. However, your overall case against UBI is mostly based on misconceptions and preconceived bias. You seem to have this idea that only certain people should be treated with decency and compassion, and not others. You're never going to end up with a well-functioning society that way. Callousness only begets more callousness.

Okay, this is the most disingenuous thing I've seen anyone post in quite some time. Are you forgetting I'm the one arguing for maintaining the very social programs that people rely upon to help them, RIGHT NOW. You're the one arguing that we should kill all of these programs, that help people with very specialized issues, and replace them with a single payment, that could be less than what they are receiving right now, and leave them on their own to try and figure out how to pay the assistance they need. Talk to the people who you are taking their social services away from and telling them they are on their own for finding similar services... on $20K a year. Those people might call this plan callous.

You complain about people who vote for Donald Trump. Well you know what gives birth to the Trumpian mindset? It's the concept of "no one ever gave a damn about me, so why should I give a damn about others?" You can't combat this mindset by only looking out for those who are in the worst situations. You have to send a clear message to everyone that every person matters.

Come on, what are you talking about? You are aware that the Trump states, those deep red states, are the ones who receive the most social assistance in the nation? They also get the most subsidies of all the states. "Those people" are the ones mostly sucking off the teet of the government, so they have nothing to whine about. They are well looked after. Their problem is the fact that we ARE trying to make every person matter and that drives them up the wall. These are the people that like their institutionalized racism, work to maintain it, and vote for the party that will keep the pedal to the metal in that regard. "Send a clear message to everyone that every person matters." Give me a break. These are the people that have been sending messages for the past 60 years that black and brown people don't matter.

Since you've swung the doors open on ad hominems, now it's my turn... you may have more years of experience in certain areas than I, but never underestimate the biases and damage that creep in as a person suffers more emotional/psychological trauma as the years go on. There's a reason why candidates like Sanders and Yang polled well among young people and poorly among older people, it's because people tend to become more callous and ruthless as they get older.

It's also because we have expertise, experience, and competency on our side. You know, the things you need to understand the big problems that affect society and the impact one system has on another. You need that understanding to tackle these big issues and affect real change. There is a difference between blind idealism and supporting change. Blind idealism is dangerous because it is filled with blind spots. That's where experience comes into play. While you call it callousness or ruthlessness we like to call it knowledge and awareness of the pitfalls of idealism.

We've all been there, and we've all championed idealistic causes and have learned our lessons the hard way, just like you will learn yours. Trust me, I used to think my old man was doddering old fool and I was the master of all domains too. Funny thing, I hit 35 and found out that old goat knew WTF he was talking about. A day doesn't go by that I wish I could tug his ear to get advice on the things impacting us and our world. Sadly he is long gone and I don't get to rely on his wisdom and counsel when I need it. Weird thing is, I have all the young guys in the office asking me for advice because I've been around the block a few times and have that experience to work from.

Here's the other thing... it seems like we've always sat back and let the "old wise" folk call the shots in our society. For the most part, we've generally trusted them to make the best decisions because of their (purported) vast experience, wisdom, and knowledge. I don't know about you, but from my perspective the world is a complete disaster right now. Look at climate change, pollution in general, never ending wars, poverty (both here and abroad), organized crime, rampant wealth disparity, systemic racism, opioid epidemic, dictatorial regimes, and other problems. This is the result of hundreds of years of letting the all-knowing experts make the big decisions. Maybe it's time to move away from the notion that the old & experienced always know best? Maybe it's time to let younger voices into the conversation and take their input seriously to heart?

You're right. There is a lot in the world that is ####ed up. But that vast majority of people haven't contributed a ton to that. That has been a small group of money and power hungry individuals that have caused the vast majority of the damage. The uber rich have always had way too much power and that is what needs to change. For every Bill Gates that wants to do goodm there are Koch Brothers that want to burn the place to the ground. This is what needs to change.

It's funny, but not too long ago I was sitting in a cabinet meeting and the conversation trued to the future. People were scared ####less because the millennials were going to be taking over and, generally speaking, they didn't care about the systems or had any interest in being engaged. I was the dissenting voice in the room and disagreed. I said they just needed to find that issue that mobilized them, just as we had been mobilized by the anti-war and anti-nuke movements in the past. Maybe this is your generation's cause. Maybe this is what will get millennials engaged and participating in the system. But that is the thing, you have to get engaged with the system. You have to learn to work within it just like we did, and the greatest generation did, and so on. Once you understand how the system works and you're on the inside then, and only then, will you have the opportunity to make the change you want. You have some good ideas, but those ideas have to work within the constructs of our government, our economy, and our society. Too much change too quickly will always be rejected. Your generation's time will come, and then you will have the honor of cleaning up the pile of #### the greatest and the boomers left behind. Trust me, I don't like what is being left behind and it is why I am trying to foment change from the inside and make a difference before I pack it in.