[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Stillman16

The VAT isn't GST, it's on the goods BEFORE consumption, so the producer pays it!

Which means it now becomes a cost of doing business and is built into the cost of the product or service to the consumer. Just like Mexico was going to pay for the wall, the cost gets passed along to the consumers.

"The means to pay for the basic income will come from four sources:

Here's where the math really gets dumb.

1. Current spending: We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of the Freedom Dividend because people already receiving benefits would have a choice between keeping their current benefits and the $1,000, and would not receive both.

UBI does not replace any of these services, so they exist regardless of a universal basic income. UBI does not eliminate the need for welfare, food stamps, or especially disability. Those people are already trying to live on means well below the poverty line. UBI does not even approach that level or address the actual level of a living wage. You cannot count on this as a revenue stream as the funds from a UBI do not meet the needs of those who use these services. The need for these services will still remain. You're just moving the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Additionally, we currently spend over 1 trillion dollars on health care, incarceration, homelessness services and the like. We would save $100 – 200+ billion as people would be able to take better care of themselves and avoid the emergency room, jail, and the street and would generally be more functional. The Freedom Dividend would pay for itself by helping people avoid our institutions, which is when our costs shoot up. Some studies have shown that $1 to a poor parent will result in as much as $7 in cost-savings and economic growth.

This is so much stupid in one point. How does UBI change health outcomes? How would it help an individual or family deal with the costs of health insurance? How is it going to prevent trips to the emergency room? How would it help with incarcerations? How would it limit homelessness? This is suggesting that throwing money at a problem makes the root causes go away. News flash: It doesn't.

2. A VAT: Our economy is now incredibly vast at $19 trillion, up $4 trillion in the last 10 years alone. A VAT at half the European level would generate $800 billion in new revenue. A VAT will become more and more important as technology improves because you cannot collect income tax from robots or software.

This didn't make sense the first time around and it makes even less sense the second time around. You were suggesting earlier that we'll just start using more robots to do jobs people don't want, but are suggesting we can't collect takes from robots or software. So where does the money come from all these jobs that are lost to robots that will be doing everything?

3. New revenue: Putting money into the hands of American consumers would grow the economy. The Roosevelt Institute projected that the economy will grow by approximately $2.5 trillion and create 4.6 million new jobs. This would generate approximately $800 – 900 billion in new revenue from economic growth.

I don't get this one either. Giving people money is no guarantee the economy is going to grow or people are going to spend it in ways to grow the economy. We've been giving the rich all the money in the world through tax breaks and tax cuts under the belief that the money would funnel into the economy and things would be better for everyone. Instead that money ended up in the banks or in the markets and were used to generate more wealth for the already rich. You give money to the poor and they will spend it on things they need, like necessities such as rent and food. What we do know is that prices are going to rise because that VAT is getting passed along to the consumer.

UBI is likely to cause inflation in a big way. Cost of goods and services is going to rise significantly as the VAT is built into the cost of everything. But hey, no worries, you have an extra $1,000 a month, amiright? So what if EVERYTHING goes up by 10%, you're covered up to $1K for that inflation.

4. Taxes on top earners and pollution: By removing the Social Security cap, implementing a financial transactions tax, and ending the favorable tax treatment for capital gains/carried interest, we can decrease financial speculation while also funding the Freedom Dividend. We can add to that a carbon fee that will be partially dedicated to funding the Freedom Dividend, making up the remaining balance required to cover the cost of this program."

Math doesn't work. Social security cap removal only helps social security (a good thing). The other taxes are the very same ones that have been killed off by the Trump admin. You honestly think that anyone is going to re-institute them for a "freedom dividend?" Come on. You have to acknowledge how the system works and who it favors.