Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community - View Single Post - The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

Calgary4LIfe · 02-20-2020, 11:10 AM

I have been reflecting a lot lately on this team and former iterations of the Flames.

Here is my take relating to some of the historical stuff being discussed.

Darryl Sutter:
I always thought he was an excellent GM with the exception of hiring coaches. He was simply abysmal in that area, unfortunately. Here is a controversial statement: His drafting ineptness was overblown. Why? When he took over the team, he had 2 or three scouts in the department. Good on him for making those trades in order to get good players to try and get this team with Iginla on it to win the cup, and he pretty much did it if that phantom goal in game 6 was spotted. Ask Todd Button the question: "When was the current traits regarding prospects identified, and Todd will respond with "Under Darryl Sutter in 2008". Darryl saw the need to expand the scouting and development department, including having the Flames be in total control of their own AHL affiliate so that they could have a better chance to develop players. He did a lot of things right in this organization, and it is a shame that he was simply terrible at hiring a coach, which eventually led to his overreaction near the end of his tenure in trying to balance the roster out as Brent was incapable of designing a system that fit the team's strengths.

Look back at those years, however. Darryl got this team to over-achieve in '04, but transformed this team into a contender that just failed in the playoffs for one reason or another. However, his team consistently made the playoffs - not one year in, one year out. Those teams were thought of as a legitimate contender that underachieved. Has this current team - with Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, etc., - ever been thought of as a contender? Have they consistently made the playoffs?

I remember when the rebuild finally started. It was based all around building a contender that would be able to compete for the Stanley Cup. That hasn't happened yet, and it has been 7 seasons. Brad hasn't been the GM for all 7 obviously, but he has yet to build a contender. Actually, let's not even talk about contending - let's consider the fact that this team has yet to make the playoffs in consecutive seasons. Let's consider that this team isn't even a perennial playoff team. Let's not talk about 'making a run' until they actually start regularly making the playoffs. Playoffs are not a given with this team, even though they are supposedly in their 'contending window'.

Think about that for a second. I remember when Gaudreau and Monahan were re-signed, and the talk was: "Well, we have 5 good years of being a contender", and last off-season, Tkachuk was re-signed and again the talk was: "Well, the window is at its' widest for the next three seasons with Tkachuk's deal".

This team isn't even a playoff shoo-in.

I have very much felt that Treliving is a really great GM, but perhaps on my personal reflection lately, lavish praise is probably both premature and undeserved. I don't begrudge him, nor do I feel he deserves to be removed and replaced with someone else, but the Flames track record since the rebuild has been undeniable - no better than a playoff bubble team with the exception of one season, but never seriously seen as a contender at any point yet.

Remember in the 2nd season of the rebuild when it seemed like the Flames were going to experience a heck of a lot of success when they defied expectations and made it into the 2nd round of the playoffs? "Rebuilding is easy!" was a common sentiment then.

Now, I am not 'down' on this team. What I do think is that there should not be a single player on this roster that should be considered untouchable. I still firmly believe that coaching continues to be a huge issue with this team and Brad's ideas surrounding coaching (which seems to be in-line with 'Babcockian Hockey') hasn't produced good enough results.

I have loved the following players while growing up - Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Roberts, Hunter, Gilmour, Mullen, Iginla, Otto, etc., and I have seen them all be traded and playing on different teams. I have also seen other players whom I loved equally retire, such as MacDonald, Loob. None of the players on the current roster have done as much or meant as much to this team as the previous players have, yet I got over their trades.

I don't envy Brad's work here. Hamonic and Brodie are two players that can return significant assets (especially Brodie). Letting them walk after this season, especially when you consider this upcoming draft, is very significant. Bad luck with Hamonic, but if he isn't able to re-sign Brodie then he better find a trade (and if you look up my history, you will find that I think Brodie is the most important defencemen on this team, and should be considered a core player - I love his game and feel he adds an incredible amount to this team).

I am ready for a quick rebuild. This team - blame it on the coaching or not - is just not good enough. If you can't be a perennial playoff team, then you have no business trying to be thought of as a contender. If you are not a contender after 7 years of rebuilding, then what you are is a failure of a rebuild.

Building a contender is hard and it requires luck on top of making the 'right decisions', but this team simply hasn't accomplished the task it set out to do 7 years ago, and it has not built a better team than the one that played between '04 and '09. It simply isn't a better team.

I personally put a lot of that blame on coaching, but ultimately Brad is responsible for that as well.

I want to see significant changes this year. Heck, give me another rebuild even. Just don't say that 'we are close'. The only thing this team has consistently shown is that they are NOT close. Treliving has a lot of tough decisions to make, and I am sure some of those decisions are going to require some buy-in from ownership, which I see as the norm in practically every team.

I don't see one untouchable player on the roster. There is nothing untouchable about it. I am not really venting here (I don't think), nor am I 'down' on this team and think they are a bunch of losers. They have shown that they are simply not good enough for whatever reason, I have no confidence in coaching, I have no confidence in the GM any longer in making a good coaching hire, and unless something changes, I don't I don't have any confidence that this team can succeed in any meaningful way.

What is a successful rebuild? Ultimately it is winning a Stanley Cup (or better, becoming a dynasty!), but that's very unfair. A proper rebuild should be considered successful if it allows for a few runs (3rd round or further) a few times with the 'core' you assembled. Luck has a lot to do with winning a cup too, and of course there are other teams that may have done a better rebuild.

What is an unsuccessful rebuild? When the core you assembled can't even make the playoffs regularly.

Maybe it is all coaching, but I don't really care too much right now. There are now 3 solid coaching candidates available (even though one is overrated in my opinion). This team has consistently been inconsistent. I am ok with change.

02-20-2020, 11:10 AM	#223
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	I have been reflecting a lot lately on this team and former iterations of the Flames. Here is my take relating to some of the historical stuff being discussed. Darryl Sutter: I always thought he was an excellent GM with the exception of hiring coaches. He was simply abysmal in that area, unfortunately. Here is a controversial statement: His drafting ineptness was overblown. Why? When he took over the team, he had 2 or three scouts in the department. Good on him for making those trades in order to get good players to try and get this team with Iginla on it to win the cup, and he pretty much did it if that phantom goal in game 6 was spotted. Ask Todd Button the question: "When was the current traits regarding prospects identified, and Todd will respond with "Under Darryl Sutter in 2008". Darryl saw the need to expand the scouting and development department, including having the Flames be in total control of their own AHL affiliate so that they could have a better chance to develop players. He did a lot of things right in this organization, and it is a shame that he was simply terrible at hiring a coach, which eventually led to his overreaction near the end of his tenure in trying to balance the roster out as Brent was incapable of designing a system that fit the team's strengths. Look back at those years, however. Darryl got this team to over-achieve in '04, but transformed this team into a contender that just failed in the playoffs for one reason or another. However, his team consistently made the playoffs - not one year in, one year out. Those teams were thought of as a legitimate contender that underachieved. Has this current team - with Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, etc., - ever been thought of as a contender? Have they consistently made the playoffs? I remember when the rebuild finally started. It was based all around building a contender that would be able to compete for the Stanley Cup. That hasn't happened yet, and it has been 7 seasons. Brad hasn't been the GM for all 7 obviously, but he has yet to build a contender. Actually, let's not even talk about contending - let's consider the fact that this team has yet to make the playoffs in consecutive seasons. Let's consider that this team isn't even a perennial playoff team. Let's not talk about 'making a run' until they actually start regularly making the playoffs. Playoffs are not a given with this team, even though they are supposedly in their 'contending window'. Think about that for a second. I remember when Gaudreau and Monahan were re-signed, and the talk was: "Well, we have 5 good years of being a contender", and last off-season, Tkachuk was re-signed and again the talk was: "Well, the window is at its' widest for the next three seasons with Tkachuk's deal". This team isn't even a playoff shoo-in. I have very much felt that Treliving is a really great GM, but perhaps on my personal reflection lately, lavish praise is probably both premature and undeserved. I don't begrudge him, nor do I feel he deserves to be removed and replaced with someone else, but the Flames track record since the rebuild has been undeniable - no better than a playoff bubble team with the exception of one season, but never seriously seen as a contender at any point yet. Remember in the 2nd season of the rebuild when it seemed like the Flames were going to experience a heck of a lot of success when they defied expectations and made it into the 2nd round of the playoffs? "Rebuilding is easy!" was a common sentiment then. Now, I am not 'down' on this team. What I do think is that there should not be a single player on this roster that should be considered untouchable. I still firmly believe that coaching continues to be a huge issue with this team and Brad's ideas surrounding coaching (which seems to be in-line with 'Babcockian Hockey') hasn't produced good enough results. I have loved the following players while growing up - Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Roberts, Hunter, Gilmour, Mullen, Iginla, Otto, etc., and I have seen them all be traded and playing on different teams. I have also seen other players whom I loved equally retire, such as MacDonald, Loob. None of the players on the current roster have done as much or meant as much to this team as the previous players have, yet I got over their trades. I don't envy Brad's work here. Hamonic and Brodie are two players that can return significant assets (especially Brodie). Letting them walk after this season, especially when you consider this upcoming draft, is very significant. Bad luck with Hamonic, but if he isn't able to re-sign Brodie then he better find a trade (and if you look up my history, you will find that I think Brodie is the most important defencemen on this team, and should be considered a core player - I love his game and feel he adds an incredible amount to this team). I am ready for a quick rebuild. This team - blame it on the coaching or not - is just not good enough. If you can't be a perennial playoff team, then you have no business trying to be thought of as a contender. If you are not a contender after 7 years of rebuilding, then what you are is a failure of a rebuild. Building a contender is hard and it requires luck on top of making the 'right decisions', but this team simply hasn't accomplished the task it set out to do 7 years ago, and it has not built a better team than the one that played between '04 and '09. It simply isn't a better team. I personally put a lot of that blame on coaching, but ultimately Brad is responsible for that as well. I want to see significant changes this year. Heck, give me another rebuild even. Just don't say that 'we are close'. The only thing this team has consistently shown is that they are NOT close. Treliving has a lot of tough decisions to make, and I am sure some of those decisions are going to require some buy-in from ownership, which I see as the norm in practically every team. I don't see one untouchable player on the roster. There is nothing untouchable about it. I am not really venting here (I don't think), nor am I 'down' on this team and think they are a bunch of losers. They have shown that they are simply not good enough for whatever reason, I have no confidence in coaching, I have no confidence in the GM any longer in making a good coaching hire, and unless something changes, I don't I don't have any confidence that this team can succeed in any meaningful way. What is a successful rebuild? Ultimately it is winning a Stanley Cup (or better, becoming a dynasty!), but that's very unfair. A proper rebuild should be considered successful if it allows for a few runs (3rd round or further) a few times with the 'core' you assembled. Luck has a lot to do with winning a cup too, and of course there are other teams that may have done a better rebuild. What is an unsuccessful rebuild? When the core you assembled can't even make the playoffs regularly. Maybe it is all coaching, but I don't really care too much right now. There are now 3 solid coaching candidates available (even though one is overrated in my opinion). This team has consistently been inconsistent. I am ok with change.