Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Lots of ignorance in this thread, especially the routine finger pointing at Israel. If Israel did not exist, the region would probably be worse off. The region of Israel would be a mix of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and who knows who else, that is if they are even done fighting after the brits left. The concept of Palestinians would likely not exist, and whatever gains these nations have had since Israel came to be, would likely also not exist. There is not a good track record for those countries, and we can look at other countries that are similar to see where they have come since WW2. Without Israel, the same conflicts exist across Africa, with the prosecution of Christians leading the way. Israel is just a country to blame while wealthy elite redirect the suffering of their people away from themselves. The fact anyone in Canada (or elsewhere in the free world) can't see this, is actually embarrassing.
We should add as well that the creation of Israel brought about human rights in the region, including a focus on minority rights, gay rights, woman's rights and pretty much everything else in the humanities. The victim attitude that Israel caused all the problems just doesn't hold up. Jews that survived the holocaust flourished, Palestinians living side by side with Jews had a real opportunity, and could have led the way for the region. The creation of the state of Israel should have been a good thing, instead Palestinian leaders have done everything possible to make it bad for themselves. The people are the victims in this, and the blame Israel attitude in this thread allows that victimhood to continue, in fact it enables it.
Yes, Israel was created and there was turmoil, but the Jews were always there and tried to bring about peace in the region. And yes, when you blame everything on Israel, and have a different set of rules for that country, repeating falsehoods meant to discredit Israel, then yes, it is anti-semitism.
The mental gymnastics that goes on and on by the same posters trying to figure out how to blame Israel would be comedic except for the fact that this dangerous mindset is very common, taught across university campuses.
On top of all that, with the terrible human rights in many of the middle east countries, the far left demonizes Israel and celebrates some of the human rights abuses. It is very ironic.
Sam Harris podcast #175 Leaving the Faith is must listening on this topic.
Back to the original topic, Iran has been a major sponsor of terrorism, with dead bodies piling up as the usual suspects remain silent. The world has pretty much let Iran do this, enabling them with the constant blame on Israel. This is in my opinion the root cause of the plane exploding. The enabling has to stop, from the UN to the people in this thread.
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couple of points, first I have never, nor would ever compare human rights in Israel to the rest of the Middle East, they aren't even close and only a fool would think otherwise.
Secondly I have never blamed or pointed a finger at Israel for 'the turmoil' or anything else, I have stated the way that Israel was created is a part, just a part, of the reason the Muslim world resents the west, but our exploitation of the Middle East and support of brutal thuggish regimes is also just as responsible for that, 'the west' is resented for this in many places outside the Middle East.
I understand totally why Jew's who have spent a thousand years praying 'next year in Jerusalem' wanted a Jewish State in the Holy Land even before the horrors of the Shoah, I don't blame Israel for defending itself when attacked and I am clear that Jordan Egypt and Syria attacked Israel and I make no defense for that, but I am also clear that the Muslims that suffered for this were not Syrians Egyptians or Jordanians to any great extent, it was the poor schmo Palestinians that ended up losing their meager possessions and housing as a result of a war they frankly had little part in (were they cheering the Arab League on? probably but that doesn't mean they deserved to lose everything of their already crappy poverty stricken existence).
I personally have little moral issue with Israel at all, I think that on a practical level its actions are short sighted, that it is, and always will be, in a very vulnerable position and that its best course of action practically is to make peace no matter how difficult, that while I do not blame Israel for keeping much of the territory it has taken defending itself in the long run the conflict will poison Israel internally, leading to a nation crippled by its defensive state of mind and giving land back is a better solution for Israel's survival in the long run.
I say this because my handful of Israeli friends in Vancouver all left Israel because they just didn't want to live in a constant state of siege anymore.
The only reason Israel even comes into this is because my only point in this whole debate was to point out that nothing 'we' in the west do, in particular the US, UK and Israel, will ever make anything better there, our every intervention is doomed to fail regardless of our intent because of the baggage we bring, and until we realise we are not the good guys, they ain't either granted, but that doesn't alter the fact that we aren't.
We invaded Iraq and that created Isis, Israel invaded the Lebanon and spawned Hezbollah, nothing we do there will work out the way we want it too because we are part of the problem, that in the end by supporting the House of Saud we are doing no more than massively arming the chaotic anarchic Muslim regime that will overthrow the house of Saud in the next few years, and at that point the west will scratch its collective head and wonder why we couldn't see it coming or predict that a Saudi state just like an Iraq or Iran only armed to the teeth with the best weapons money can buy was a bad idea.
Nothing we do in the region seems to happen for any better reason than just staggering on for another day keeping a lid on things with seemingly no thought as to what the next decade will bring