[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don’t get the Ferland love, he is as much a question mark as Neal or Lucic.

Back to back 17+ goal seasons, better skater than Neal or Lucic have been at ANY point in their careers, proven chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan (statistically that line 5v5 was no worse than Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm contrary to popular belief)... but you don't get the Ferland love.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why do you want to buy out Michael Stone?

Even if he's been passed on the depth chart, give him the preseason to show the league he's suffering no ill effects from the blood clots and you can trade for something.

Or you keep him because injuries will happen and he's a good player.

No need for it, just my opinion.

It's really tough to have your #7 defenseman be making 3.5M a year. And that's what Stone has become, healthy or not. That's 3.5M that becomes 1,166,667M over two years with a buyout, it makes a lot of sense if we can't find a taker. We will need every penny of cap space with all our RFAs still unsigned.

It shouldn't be plan A, as I think certain players on our roster - Hamonic, Frolik, and maybe even hopefully Stone himself - have trade value, but it should definitely be an option during the second buyout window.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not many questions around Lucic. His excuses have run out and we know what he is IMO. Like I said, this trade is just admitting defeat on the Neal signing a year into it. Time to move on.

I'm not sure his excuses have run out.

- I don't blame Lucic for not being able to keep up with McDavid. McDavid is the single fastest player in the NHL, even Gaudreau seemed to have a pace mismatch with him when they've played together.
- I don't think RNH is a very good line driver. He's a big name, but not more than a big name
- And Edmonton's bottom six might not even constitute a playoff team in the AHL outside of, well Lucic.
- Lucic's 5v5 primary assist rate last year was pretty solid
- Lucic's underlying numbers in general are not indicative of a player who's "donezo". Contrast his with, say, Iginla at the end of his career and Iginla was an anchor on everyone. Lucic isn't that, just yet. Neal based on last year might actually be just that, because he was a drag on literally everyone. Sam Bennett was the only one that Neal seemed to not anchor down completely, but Bennett deserves more than feeding Neal for muffins.
- Lucic is a screen man, on a team where Adam Larsson, Darnell Nurse, and Kris Russell are some of the regular point shots being launched at net.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

It’s been one year of Bill Peters and Hamonic is not the reason we lost to Colorado in 5 games.

Hamonic is not the reason we lost to Colorado in 5 games - agreed. He wasn't even the worst player on his pair in that particular series, that would be Hanifin. But Hanifin has the excuse of being a 21 year old Dman who had a downswing. Hamonic really brings nothing if he's not playing a tight gap, and his consistency in that area is very concerning for a pending UFA who we may not want to lock down past next year. But I am digressing here.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Maybe it’s the core that’s the problem. Again.

The core is a problem only in a sense that we, again, don't have that franchise caliber first line center that championship contenders naturally have (Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, Crosby, Malkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom). Besides that though, they're a very high character group and I don't enjoy all the flack they take for manufactured locker room or attitude problems.

Originally Posted by 4X4

So, pretty much Neal. Made zero impact all year long. I can't remember one time I said F-yeah, but there were many F-yous.

I can remember one. Valimaki to Gaudreau to Neal against the Avs, must have been November by my guess. That was exactly one.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Acquired as a bottom six forward that is tough and intimidating to play in a game that is progressively becoming more and more about speed, skill, vision, playmaking, strength and strategic defending.

It already has failed. We’re locked into 4 years of Lucic. There’s no escaping this deal if Lucic continues to slide to the point of being unplayable. Which is what we’ve been mocking the Oilers about for 3 years.

Now we’re paying a position locked bottom six 5.25 million.

At no point in time has anyone wanted Treliving to go out and give a bottom six player $5.25 x 4 so why go out and acquire one just because James Neal has put egg on your face.

1) Line construction is about balance. Skill is a no-brainer but I've always talked about the a Speed-Speed-Power ratio as being ideal, as well as playmaker-playmaker-Goalscorer. Sure, there's no magic solution, but it's a pretty easy-to-identify combination. If you pair Lucic with two speed players, for instance Mangiapane and Ryan, or Dube and Czarnik, or Bennett and Mangiapane, or whatever, he certainly brings elements that offsets and complements those linemates. Of course you'd love it if he had a more explosive stride, as Ferland above, but he clearly does bring other elements in terms of details that help his line, which manifest in his underlying numbers not being a drag.

2) There are always options to, some extent, "escape this deal". Retained salary is one - if he can bounce back to being even a half-decent bottom sixer you can cut his cap hit down to 2.625M and probably find a taker. A deal with Seattle is another. Or the fact that his actual dollars owned are exceeded by his cap hit is actually beneficial if sending him to a budget team such as Arizona, Florida, Carolina, or Ottawa. If Ryan Reaves is able to make 2.775M for being a 4th line scrub, these scenarios don't sound out-there at all. Buyouts are not a solution either, you effectively double the period of cap impact on a team with a buyout. For instance the Kings will be hit with a cap penalty for Mike Richards' buyout until 2031-32. That's insane. That means someone after Richards won his last Stanley Cup will be NHL eligible by the time Richards' buyout cap hit is out of the picture. And that applies to James Neal too - it was never an overly viable solution to buy him out.

3) We are paying a bottom six position 5.25M. It's absolutely unideal. But it'd far more ideal than paying a press box filler 5.75M while still paying 1.0M+ for someone to fill that role. James Neal was the 13th best forward on our team last year by almost every metric. Just think about that.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

...


Which is why Hathaway was so valuable. He added grit along with motor, penalty kill, and was able to produce a decent amount for the ice time, position and linemates he was given.

The Myth of Garnet Hathaway.

- He had incredibly inflated shooting percentage last year. He may never again even hit five goals.
- He was a good second or third unit penalty killer, but there are plenty of capable roster players - Bennett, Monahan, Dube, and Mangiapane who can pick up where he left off. We still presumably have Backlund, Lindholm, Ryan, and Jankowski so our PK is just fine.
- Hathaway has been given some really cushy linemates the last two years. Never has he even been the second best player on his line. Consistently a distant third.
- Lucic adds all that grit / motor stuff, and he does it in ways that apparently manifest in shot differentials, whereas outside of his time with Mangiapane-Ryan Hathaway was consistently a possession black hole here. This is probably due to Lucic being more skilled than Hathaway will ever be.

Lucic fits the same role Hathaway did and has at minimum a superior track record. He's more expensive, but there was no poofing Neal's contract away either. Did we really want Neal replacing Hathaway's role? Or did we really want more Bennett - Jankowski - Neal?