[Fireball]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I find this analysis to be very interesting and would love to go through it with your opinion

Sure!

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think the Allies would have eventually established at least a couple of beach heads in Normandy and France. Now we know that as successful as the D-Day invasion is considered, there were some struggles and a lot of the Allies fell behind the inital and probably over-optimistic time tables. Now by this time German Air Power had been sevely crippled, so the Allies could have used thier now superior airpower to continue to cripple the German arms industry. The German long range artillary would have been based around thier V1, V2 and long range train based long guns, but its likely that the RAF would have crippled thier ability to both manufacture these weapons and deploy them. It would have also been difficult for the German's to continue thier atomic arms experiments with the pressure that was being put on the German's on both fronts. Its also a given that even though the American Airforce including the bomber groups would have made its way into the war, but the American's would have continued thier advanced weapons development and superior aircraft like the B-24 would have made thier way into the British inventory.

Quite so! But Germany had already successfully air raided England from September of 1940 through to May 1941, which is why they had suffered so many loses in the first place. England was suffering massive loses to their aircraft production then, as Hitler had basically been able to shut down most of the airfields and training centers that trained and housed new pilots for the Allies.

They (the Nazis) suffered just as many loses when Brittain returned the favour, mind you... but I really doubt that slowed them down. Had the US not intervened with some reinforcement over London and in the English channel, it likely would have been a statemate, as Hitler could have rebuilt some of his aircraft in a matter of months. Had Hitler not retracted most of his Luftwaffe to the Russian line, either, it may have likely been an entirely different outcome, including the loses suffered by American pilots.

Win or lose, I think we could both agree that D-Day would have been a helluva lot more ugly without the American pressence. France would have likely been a much bloodier, much longer country to try and retake. Loses would have been staggeringly high for both sides.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's a funny story about German troops passing Russian trains heading to Germany loaded with grain and oil, this was how surprised Stalin was over the speed of Hitler's betrayal. The Russian's had already gained a lot of Armament's from the American's by 1941 including the chasis for the greatest tank ever made in the T-34, combine that with the fact that Marshall's Zhukov and Bukarin (I think) had taken the German Strategy of Blitzkrieg and perfected it into the combined arms art that the Russian's continued to perfect until the late 80's. At the time of the turnaround at Stalingrad, the Russians had a massive advantage in men, tanks, tubed artillary and aircraft. Its likely that the German's might have made the smart move and withdrawn thier troops from Russian soil and dig in on the German borders and made any invasion even more bloody. Hitler's pride and lack of Military intelligence (both personally and institutionally) doomed the German offensive from day one of the invasion.

You said it yourself, the American's sent the T-34 chasis to Russia, it could have been an entirely different story. But Hitler was slowly gaining ground in the USSR. What he lacked in MI, his Generals had in being able to pick and chose where to fight. The whole Blitzkreig philosophy was to strike where to least expected, and grab as much land was possible.

I don't dispute that he would have taken Moscow, nor Stalingrad for that matter... but without, at least, some kind of advantage on the field provided by the US, it would have gotten ugly, as Hitler felt obviously felt threatened by the US entering the war. He wanted to end the fighting in Eastern Europe, or at least minimize it before the US had a chance to get involved even more than they were in Europe, (which is why he contracted Japan to attack them in the first place.)

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

German U-boat losses even before the American involvement in the war were murderous, and the interception of the Enigma code by the remnants of Polish intelligence really screwed over the German's hopes of strangling the British off. The german blockade was only suppossed to last for so long while it waited for the British surrender, but the British resolution and thier ability to forestall Hitler's land invasion of Britain effectively ended the Submarine threat in the Atlantic.

The validity of the Polish being the first to crack the Enigma code is still up for debate. However, the Americans did help to advance the English technology that was developed some time after the Polish laid claim to it. The American technology not only sped up and aided the Brit's counterpart, but made the decipherings more accurate, as well.

As far as the U-Boats were concerned, yes, they were getting sunk and hit with utmost accuracy... but that didn't stop them from prowling the Atlantic and crippling the trade lines like they did, either.

I think only speculation could have determined that outcome had the US not had some kind of Naval pressence off of North America's Eastern shore.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Without American assistance, the German's would have still lost, the correllation of German Forces to Ally forces would have still ensured that. However I still think the war would have become even more of a war of attrition where Allied forces were forced to throw themselves against a well prepared German trench network. I figured the War would have taken 5 years longer, the Japanese would not have had a counter in the East and would have probably seen the success of thier Co-prosperity sphere. The American's would have probably emerged as an even stronger economic force, and the Soviets would have been unoppossed in Europe since nobody would have wanted to continue the war against a strong Soviet Army.

One of the things that causes the Canadian's to be somewhat ignored was that we were part of the Commonwealth command structure so for all intensive purposes especially to the American's we get labeled as British Forces.

Depends on how you want to look at it. The US was supplying the Allies with parts, ammunitions, technology, and supplies since the war started, while turning killer profit off of the oil that Hitler's forces demanded in order to got as far as he did.

Had the US not been there at all to strengthen, reinforce and refresh our own forces, while being able to intimidate, rush and force Hitler into taking action and moving his forces to areas of Europe he may not have done without the US being involved, it could have resulted in a completely different scenerio.

All we have to base it on is speculation and educated guesses from the events that actually unfolded during WWII. As you said, it's tough to predict.

One things for sure, though, the US was and still is the leading military powerhouse on the globe. I, for one, am thankful they chose our side.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hey I'm completely thankful for American involvement especially since there wasn't alot of depth of Defense on our West Coast, and the Japanese were a carrier force so they could have projected power into our backyard. Its likely that we would have seen a much larger Soviet Empire unless the Japanese decided to attack through thier chinese holdings in an effort to seize the Eastern Soviet Union. But the Soviet Navy was in its infancy at that point and couldn't have countered a strong Japanese threat. Combine that with the fact that the Soviet far east command had been drained to the Western front, and we might be seeing three strong empires at the end of the Second World War.

An American Empire with its younger generation largely unharmed, but with an awesome production facitlity.

A resurgant Japanese Empire that controlled the majority of the Pacific Ocean, the Eastern half of China, and as far north as Siberia.

A Russian Empire that rolled through all of Europe and had set up an Iron Curtain through the French Coastlines. That had gained nuclear weapons before the Yanks, and the rocket technology to deploy them. And under Stalin.



Tough to Predict.

Good point... but I'm still a firm believer that the US bailed us out. They did a lot more for the Allies, and for Russia than simply dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without their intel., their reinforcement, and their next-to-impenetrable Navy at the time, we would have suffered, and that's a fact.

We did our part, and they did theres. Yes, it was a joint effort, and sure, they like to relish in their own victory... but we're not less guilty of doing that, either.