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Old 04-08-2018, 09:56 AM   #654
Cecil Terwilliger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
Proof of the predictive power of standings and goals has been posted on this board dozens of times by now. Just because you don't bother to read the facts doesn't change the fact that they exist.

But here, let's go again.

Goal-based Metrics Better than Shot-Based Metrics at predicting hockey success



Wait, I thought we can't know how the Flames use stats? Make up your mind?



Ok, so essentially your argument is that there might be advanced stats nobody knows about that are actually good, and therefore you shouldn't dismiss it? This is just absolutely ridiculous.

But okay, let's limit the argument to advanced stats we know exist and are used, shot-based metrics, and agree that there might exist stats we don't know about that provide useful additional information.

(I actually assume there are, but this isn't what is commonly meant by "advanced stats" and thus I find it a disingenuous point.)

BTW, while that SJ journal article isn't supposed to be about "advanced stats are useless", this is not what the numbers really show.

Sure, they have some predictive power, but they are just not that great, and there's never been shown any proof that you can combine them with primary stats in a meaningful way the way he suggests.

Here's a few quotes:



Also, the argument that "since teams are using them they must be useful" is ridiculous even if assume that you somehow know they are actually making significant decisions based on them. (We don't know how many teams use them and how, so your argument that somehow 31 teams know something I don't is just an appeal to authority who's stand you don't actually know.)

Here's the thing; most statistics are not actually reliable enough to base single actions on. Like, you can't hire a man over a woman based on gender-based statistics because the variation between individuals is so big. Even if statistically men were better at something.

Even if there's strong statistical evidence that men are stronger than women, if you have actual strength tests, adding gender to that equation doesn't actually improve your decision making process.

Despite this, people and organizations CONSTANTLY do things like this, to the point where you have to go out of your way to hide information from them to get them to ignore it. Like hide gender information from applications.

It's also so much easier to defend your decision making if you say you based them on some stat rather than intuition, or more stats rather than less. Even if that means including stats that don't add value but rather just confuse the issue.

In hockey there's just no evidence that shot-based metrics are a good tool for acquiring players.
Of course there's the problem that this is almost impossible to prove either way, because there's just so much randomness and so many variables and the number of players moved each year is just too small. IMO a good statistician with understanding of basic psychology should say that most likely it's just better to mostly ignore the advanced stats.

The human psychological desire to believe in what looks like evidence is essentially how we got the science replication crisis. If scientists specifically trained to not get fooled by statistical evidence constantly get fooled by it on a massive scale, I don't see why it wouldn't be likely that you can easily fool most NHL GM's.
Ok it’s abundantly clear you don’t understand what teams use advanced stats for. First off, I don’t know why you keep talking about shot based metrics. I’ve not mentioned that once. Second, that article is about predicting the standings. It’s useless. It’s like arguing wins helps predict the standings. Duh. That’s not what teams are using advanced stats for.

You keep making a counter to an position I’ve never taken and it’s pretty clear why. Your only argument against advanced stats is you don’t understand them and you don’t trust them. Therefore you keep making this about predicting the standings. Omg wow, teams with better goal diff is a better representation of the standings than shot diff. I’ve mentioned multiple times, that’s not what we’re talking about here. Goal diff is the result teams want to achieve because it correlates to wins. Using goal diff to predict goal diff. Great plan.

Score more goals than your opponent and you are guaranteed to win. Wow! What a revelation! Clearly you are the one who understands better than me because this is new information.

Teams use advanced stats to help evaluate players and their team in a way goal diff can’t. They use thes stats to support what they see on the ice. I can’t explain it any simpler and if you aren’t willing to recognize that, there’s nothing further to discuss.

The fact you still think this is only about some completion among fans to predict the standings, after the season is over, to guess the standings based on certain stats is mind boggling. That is so useless to NHL teams. They already know that having good goal diff is important. This is about how to achieve that and how to evaluate their players.

Once again your arrogance that you know better than 31 NHL teams is hilarious. Yup you’re right. They’re all delusional and being fooled by their own bias.
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