Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
You really have to bundle the NKVD and the KGB as one singular identity. since the KGB was just an amalgimation of two different security agencies, the NKGB and the MVD so that all internal and external security affairs merged under one body. the internal structure and leadership of both organizations never changed. Now you can certainly sluff off a lot of deaths to Stalin's poisoned pens, however Beria and the KGB was certainly riding shotgun, created the gulags, and provided the apparatus to obtain the falls confessions. You also have to remember that when they pointed at you and declared you a traitor, you died, and your entire family was either imprisoned or sentenced to a silent slow death in Siberia, so the KGB was certainly guilty of causing 40 million deaths. You also have to accept the fact that the KGB created and imported thier methods to not only the Soviet satellite states thus interfearing in friendly nations. But the KGB also supplied arms and finances to a great many of the worst terrorist groups. For example Ayman-al-Zawahiri received training in a FSB sponsored camp in 1998 (I know, I know its FSB, but I found it interesting.). Carlos the Jackal was funded and trained by the KGB, as was PFLA, the KGB certainly got its hands dirty with the IRA, Arafat was a great friend to the KGB, as was the Red Army Faction.
There were a great many more, these are just a few examples.
Interesting topic though.
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like i said, if we're talking ALL russian intelligence / police then it's no contest. the russians 'win'. <shiver>
but if we're talking letters KGB versus CIA then you should also be aware that it came out in the early 90s that Red Army Faction, and many other leftist extemists in europe, were completely infiltrated, directed, and aided by western intelligence, PLUS the KGB.
an interesting aside on stalin's crimes is that he managed to get the local governors to committ a lot of the visible transgressions, opening themselves and their bureacracies to further purges, often fueled by the citizens themselves.
but old man george is probably the poster child all-time for CIA covert ops, he's got the blue blood, the nazi connections (his dad and thiessen), and my original intent was to say that he doesn't compare too well with the VERY dirty putin in terms of pure evil. this is a guy that lied to the american people aboot the iraqi army throwing kuwaiti babies out of the incubators in hospitals, it was a $15M PR campaign and the girl that testified in front of the UN was the kuwaiti ambassador's daughter. this came out on CBC some time after. that's as dirty as you'll see old man george get on national television, but it's not the end stop. the carlyle group in particular is so dirty with the same money that backs islamic terror that i cannot believe people aren't up in arms aboot it.
as for putin, the bombings in moscow in 1999, blamed publicly on the chechen rebels, are commonly thought to have been putin's boys. he's no saint.
i stand by what i said. i never anywhere claimed that the CIA was worse than the entirety of russian / soviet secret ops and police, this is past the point of ridiculous.
i don't think we're disagreeing here CaptainCrunch - i think you... think we are.