[wittynickname]

I was working all day and there's a whole lot to unpack here, so this is long.

Originally Posted by SebC

The problem is that it can be impossible to know if an advance will be welcome or unwelcome without having mind-reading super powers.

"Impossible"? Seriously?

For all the talk of "nuance" that happens on this board with certain posters, I would think this is an absolute golden area where "nuance" applies. All human interaction involves nuance. It's just a matter of having the emotional intelligence to handle it.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This is why it would be better if we developed a social norm of women taking the initiative sexually. Men are both more likely to be predatory, and more likely to be socially inept than women. It would be nice if we could wave a wand and transform the brains of all men so they're always clear on social context and receptiveness. But that's not going to happen. So the best way to avoid uncomfortable and unpleasant situations is to make women responsible for taking the first steps.

So since it's just so difficult for men to control their predatory behavior and inherent creepiness, that means that women must change entirely? Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favor of women making the first move--I usually do myself if I'm interested in someone--but women should not have to entirely change their behavior because men are apparently prone to be creepers.

That's just an intensely insulting statement to make about men, honestly. If the base belief is "welp men are just creepers by nature so I guess women have to take over everything" that's a whole lot of that beloved nuance right out the window.

Originally Posted by northcrunk

This is why as a man it is always more enjoyable to work with all men. You don't have to walk on egg shells.

Or rather than "walking on eggshells" you could just learn to speak to women like real people.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I can't be the only one who feels like men taking the time to be considerate of their actions, words and intentions going forward is anything but a bad thing.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yes, and it's very helpful of you to add that, Psycnet, because I see a ton of people suggesting precisely the opposite.

Putting these two quotes together for context: Yes, that's the gist of some suggestions here. "Well women have to be responsible for taking the initiative to start a relationship" "well when I can just work with men I don't have to give any thought to what I'm saying"

Women are being made responsible for men's inability to develop social skills. While there are women who are absolutely guilty of being crass, of harassing others, assaulting others, etc, it's not as common as with men. Women in general have stronger emotional skills--women do better at reading situations and knowing what is and isn't appropriate, and it's ingrained in women from a very young age. Men don't have that forced upon them as children, good old "boys will be boys" and "boys don't cry" and thus men never attempt to develop any sense of emotional intelligence.

If this forces men to develop a sense of emotional IQ, that's a very good thing.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The persistent inability of ideologues to acknowledge the nuance of any given moral issue was once a continuous source of depression for me. But now that I've embraced nihilism fully, it simply reaffirms my views! Bring on that extinction level asteroid, universe. We're ready.

It is hilarious to hear you complain about nuance when discussing human sexuality/interaction. Literally all about it is nuance. That's what we're all railing about is nuance. Nuance in relationships is having the emotional knowledge to realize "it's 4 am and I ask a woman to come into my private hotel room for coffee" is different from "I ask a woman to go for coffee in a public place at a reasonable hour of the day" and how one of those puts out really big red flags and the other is basic normal human interaction.

Not being creepy isn't that hard. It just isn't. The concept that we have to change literally all traditional means of communicating in a romantic way because men can't grasp that cornering a woman on an elevator at 4 am is problematic is literally the polar opposite of nuance.

Forcing massive sociological changes on the masses because some serial creepers are being called to task for their continued and habitual creepiness is like lighting your house on fire because you found a spider in the bathroom.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But in today's outrage culture,

It seems to me there's a whole lot more outrage in this "well we just have to change literally everything about how relationships work because god why am I expected to think twice before I say something that's potentially offensive?" attitude than just...asking men to be decent human beings who think about the feelings of others.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The question I always come back to is whether ideologues are consciously hypocrites, or just simple-minded.

Do they honestly think something as complex and irrational as human sexuality can be so tidily controlled? That every man and woman in Canada could reach a consensus on where and when off-colour jokes are appropriate, where and when it's okay to touch someone's elbow, the exact border between professional and social environment? And that having reached a consensus, no person of goodwill would slip up? Do they never make errors in judgement themselves?

Or is is just convenient to pretend the world is so simple so you can malign your political opponents and broadcast your own righteousness.

Look at the men who are being called to task for harassment and assault. They all have one great big thing in common: their actions were not a one-time lapse in judgement. The men who are losing their jobs are guilty of habitually harassing others. They were in positions of power and they with regularity abused that power over women (and girls, and other men). These are not one-off jokes made in the wrong moment with years of goodwill. These are men who have been harassing and assaulting their victims for years, sometimes decades.

This is not about small lapses in judgement. This is not about one dirty joke that was spoken in the wrong company. The men who are actually being brought down are bad people doing bad things for a very long time, not good people making a dumb mistake one time.