[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Right? At what point did anyone in this thread imply that women don't have libidos or "carnal desires" (lol, carnal desires.).

The following posts curiously mention nothing about women. As if it's only men who watch porn, look at people they're attracted to, compliment them on their appearance, or flirt.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Porn is the definition of objectifying women (and people), and for all intents and purposes, everyone consumes it. I'm not too proud to admit I've consumed it, especially in my younger years, but I've been porn free for a long time now in an effort to change my overall attitude toward women.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Do you compliment men on their appearance too? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I know many men, hell I was one, who point out a woman's appearance but would never consider the same for a man. That is a clear double standard based on sexuality. It's the objectification of women even if they are only waitresses...

And really, has anyone here tried to defend slapping asses? Some people are trying to introduce nuance to a subject where clear distinctions aren't as practical as some others here are suggesting.

Virtually every relationship begins with one party going out on a limb and making some kind of signal or overture that they aren't confident will be reciprocated. That's the messy reality of human sexuality. Maybe at some point all dating and mating will happen via an app, and there will no longer be any grey area around intentions. We aren't in that world yet.

Originally Posted by corporatejay

The problem with harassment is that a lot of it comes down to the subjective interpretation of the victim. So, if a single person gets a compliment from another single person who they might also find attractive, that's fine. but if a non-attractive person compliments an attractive person then it's harassment.

This is a prime example of the messiness I'm talking about. The receptiveness of someone to a compliment or overture is largely dependent on how much they like that person making the overture. And of course that can change - I know women who ended up marrying guys who asked them out for years before they said yes.

Most people are far from perfect when it comes to discerning the attitude and intentions of others. There have been cases where I didn't know a woman was interested in me until she sat on my lap and asked why I didn't have a girlfriend. In almost every relationship I've been in, she made the first move, and afterwards asked why I didn't make one sooner (in some cases months sooner). Meanwhile, guys I knew who were more assertive never had any trouble finding dates or hooking up. Did they leave a trail of harassed and abused women behind them? I can't say - though I can say they had long-term relationships and remained on good terms with exes, which usually isn't the sign of selfish pig. And there were clearly a great many women who didn't find their confident approach at all off-putting.

Of course men shouldn't make catcalls or slap women on the ass. But it's hard to imagine a time when men (and women) don't take some risk when it comes to stepping through the threshold between plutonic and romantic. And frankly, does anyone honestly believe women want that - for men never to flirt or make first steps without a clear invitation?