Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community - View Single Post - Do you think this team's core has Stanley Cup potential?

Calgary4LIfe · 08-04-2017, 02:13 AM

We have a lot of ambiguity when talking about who is core and who is not.

I like to think of guys that should be here long-term 3+ years as part of the core. From that standpoint, I do think that the Flames are composed this way:

Forwards: Capable but not an elite group.
Defence: Elite
Goaltending: ????

That is the most simple way.

Now, I am a big believer in Parsons (kid just wins and has that drive to save pucks like Kipper and Vernon, and like nobody since). You win with a goalie like this. I WANTED to like Irving, but I hated the way he played. Ortio was a better prospect, but you were still hoping his development arc would take him there. Parsons is on-target. You aren't hoping he becomes something that he is currently not. All you are hoping for is that he continues developing without requiring any leaps. Gillies I am less high on, but I do think if he just continues his development he can be a steady goaltender who you can win with. I put Rittich between Gillies and Parsons on ability - so that's really good. The long-term outlook for goaltending I find is really strong.

Schneider is an under-appreciated prospect. I like his compete level. I expect him to bounce back and do some climbing in the prospect rankings, but at the same time I myself couldn't vote for him yet. I place him ahead of MacDonald, and MacDonald is still a very legitimate piece to have in the stable.

Smith/Lack - that should provide for the best goaltending the Flames have received since Kiprusoff. I am not a believer in Lack, but he should do well as a backup. Smith I worry about with respect to his health, and he is 35 after all, but he should be good enough. What I mean is that I think the combo of Smith/Lack should be good enough on most nights to not lose the Flames any games. That is what I hope for at the moment. I do think that they have the potential to steal some games as well. Are they good enough to win a cup?

I think a goalie that doesn't lose you a game is a damn good goalie. From that aspect, I think this combo is good enough to win a cup with, but they are here short-term (Smith in particular) so talking about them as part of the core may not be accurate anyways.

What makes the Flames a particularly attractive team is how they are built and how their cap looks like.

- No players making 7 million or more
- An elite defensive core
- Very deep forward group - at the very least if some of the younger guys continue taking steps, and a couple from Stockton get to see some time
- An elite (or damn good?) prospect goalie depth organizationally
- An elite - or near elite - defensive prospect depth
- A very good forward prospect depth

Look at the 'proven' roster players on forward - Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Frolik, Tkachuk (already!) - that's good talent. Gaudreau is elite offensively, Backlund is elite at a two-way game, Frolik is almost elite as a two-way forward (though I don't necessarily add him to the 'core', but he is what I would call most certainly part of the 'working core' that is helping the Flames win games).

Ferland has taken over games (and an entire series) before, and I do think we haven't nearly seen the best of him offensively. Bennett has as well, and I expect him to take further steps until he is more like a 1st line center than a 3rd line center.

Jankowski and Foo - these guys will be making a case for being strong complimentary players. In Jankowski's case, he might end up making a case for being part of the long-term core of this organization.

Lazar - I said it at the time of the trade, and I stand behind it - We fans will love this kid, and not just for how well spoken he is and how much he is always smiling. He is very fast, he has a tonne of grit, and he has a non-stop motor. I also think he has a tonne of untapped offensive potential that has thus far been stymied due to Ottawa rushing him. This kid still has a lot of potential.

Know who else I consider a strong part of the core? A strong manager. I am still relatively indifferent to Gulutzan as a coach, and I strongly feel he has a lot of seasoning to do yet (especially with managing his goaltenders and using coaching challenges/time-outs/line matching - Hartley was way stronger in all those areas), but his system seems to be one that works and is very much a modern system. I hope he does tweak it to utilize the defence more, sort of like how Hartley used them, but maybe quite to that extent, as every defender on the team now is strong in all areas of the ice.

Hopefully Gulutzan can grow his game professional acumen a bit more and pick his spots a bit better - that will help a playoff series tremendously. Sutter was simply amazing at it. While Hartley was in no way elite at line-matching, he made Dejardins look like an idiot at it. Gulutzan seems like a bright guy, and it does seem to be a strong system, so I am betting he improves as a coach.

Treliving is an ace up the Flames' sleeve. You know the guy is going to address a hole he sees, and manage the team's cap well. Sure, he has mistakes like Brouwer and Raymond, but he hits it out of the park in his trades and other signings.

What I really feel is so very important when talking about winning the cup, is how the hockey ops department as a whole are doing. The recent hirings/promotions lead me to believe that they are doing a lot of things right. You need a strong hockey ops department these days to give you an edge.

All in all, I think the Flames are a deep team with an elite defence and a bit of a question mark (again) in net.

The positive thing for me is that this is a team well-positioned to take a long run at the cup. Even after Giordano has fallen-off, even after Hamonic and even Brodie get raises, there will be room in the cap (or trades to be made) to address these. The long-term outlook is definitely really strong, and I will argue it is probably the strongest in the west right now.

Anaheim definitely matches Calgary on defence (at the very least, the Flames and Ducks are in the same tier, and preference dictates who you like better). Ducks are much better positioned in net today (with the Flames potentially closing that gap soon - I really believe in Parsons). Ducks are easily the better team on forward right now, but the Flames I argue are a bit deeper now, but not as elite. However, Getzlaf, Perry and crying Puke-Face are getting there in age, and while I like some of their young guys, they don't have anyone to fill those shoes long-term. I give the Flames the edge long term between those two teams.

Arizona I don't think have enough good prospects. I don't think Dylan Strome is going to be elite. I don't think they have enough elite-level D on the way to close the gap with the Flames. They have some pieces that I really love (Keller, for instance), but just not enough pieces currently in their pipeline to make me believe that they will turn into a major threat.

Vancouver is gaining a tonne of steam in their system. Really love some of their prospects, but they have had costly misses in the last few years. Who knows what they end up as.

San Jose is getting there in age, and though it wouldn't surprise me to see them leap up in the standings again and make a strong push, they are going to start fading.

Nasvhille is looking solid. They have to continue adding to their forwards for me to like them a lot, but who can argue with a Stanley Cup finals appearance while generally being a young team?

Chicago is trending down. St Louis did a lot of great things this off-season, but do they have the horses organizationally to turn them into a contender again, and keep them there for the next 5 years?

I do think that the next powerhouse team in the west is going to be Dallas. They have a lot of talent coming through, and made some really good moves that addressed their weaknesses. That's a strong group that is building still.

Edmonton is a joke to me. An ugly, annoying joke. I think Chiarelli is terrible at managing the cap. I though (nervously) that it was management that was forcing his hand and making him trade away this high-end youth who dared to demand excessive salaries after their ELCs and who wouldn't take the proverbial old-school second contracts. I guess not. It seems to be him that hands out terrible contracts. I do think that McDavid's contract is fair - maybe even a relative bargain long-term - but Chiarelli has already saddled that team with expensive contracts that won't help that organization win long-term. They are going to be a very shallow team that relies on an elite top line (and it will be the best in the NHL, unfortunately), and an elite-level goalie (who needs another couple of seasons before we can start talking about him being an elite goalie - but he has been elite or near elite for them). I don't think the Oilers are well-positioned, and I don't think they draft well enough to become better positioned. I do think they draft much better since they fired their old scouting staff, but they don't seem to be getting enough quality players pushing up the pipeline. We will have to see. Either way, it will be tough to off-set the salaries of McDavid (as well as Draisaitl and Talbot long-term) when you have a few too many poor contracts on the books, without enough replacement level players off-setting those.

Flames I feel are exceptionally well-positioned to make some strong runs. I do think that the 'core' is talented enough - elite defensively, offensively decent - with more room to grow. It is the entire organization that makes me confident right now that the Flames will at least come close at some point one of these years, but SHOULD be starting to make a lot more noise in the seasons to come.

08-04-2017, 02:13 AM	#36
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	We have a lot of ambiguity when talking about who is core and who is not. I like to think of guys that should be here long-term 3+ years as part of the core. From that standpoint, I do think that the Flames are composed this way: Forwards: Capable but not an elite group. Defence: Elite Goaltending: ???? That is the most simple way. Now, I am a big believer in Parsons (kid just wins and has that drive to save pucks like Kipper and Vernon, and like nobody since). You win with a goalie like this. I WANTED to like Irving, but I hated the way he played. Ortio was a better prospect, but you were still hoping his development arc would take him there. Parsons is on-target. You aren't hoping he becomes something that he is currently not. All you are hoping for is that he continues developing without requiring any leaps. Gillies I am less high on, but I do think if he just continues his development he can be a steady goaltender who you can win with. I put Rittich between Gillies and Parsons on ability - so that's really good. The long-term outlook for goaltending I find is really strong. Schneider is an under-appreciated prospect. I like his compete level. I expect him to bounce back and do some climbing in the prospect rankings, but at the same time I myself couldn't vote for him yet. I place him ahead of MacDonald, and MacDonald is still a very legitimate piece to have in the stable. Smith/Lack - that should provide for the best goaltending the Flames have received since Kiprusoff. I am not a believer in Lack, but he should do well as a backup. Smith I worry about with respect to his health, and he is 35 after all, but he should be good enough. What I mean is that I think the combo of Smith/Lack should be good enough on most nights to not lose the Flames any games. That is what I hope for at the moment. I do think that they have the potential to steal some games as well. Are they good enough to win a cup? I think a goalie that doesn't lose you a game is a damn good goalie. From that aspect, I think this combo is good enough to win a cup with, but they are here short-term (Smith in particular) so talking about them as part of the core may not be accurate anyways. What makes the Flames a particularly attractive team is how they are built and how their cap looks like. - No players making 7 million or more - An elite defensive core - Very deep forward group - at the very least if some of the younger guys continue taking steps, and a couple from Stockton get to see some time - An elite (or damn good?) prospect goalie depth organizationally - An elite - or near elite - defensive prospect depth - A very good forward prospect depth Look at the 'proven' roster players on forward - Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Frolik, Tkachuk (already!) - that's good talent. Gaudreau is elite offensively, Backlund is elite at a two-way game, Frolik is almost elite as a two-way forward (though I don't necessarily add him to the 'core', but he is what I would call most certainly part of the 'working core' that is helping the Flames win games). Ferland has taken over games (and an entire series) before, and I do think we haven't nearly seen the best of him offensively. Bennett has as well, and I expect him to take further steps until he is more like a 1st line center than a 3rd line center. Jankowski and Foo - these guys will be making a case for being strong complimentary players. In Jankowski's case, he might end up making a case for being part of the long-term core of this organization. Lazar - I said it at the time of the trade, and I stand behind it - We fans will love this kid, and not just for how well spoken he is and how much he is always smiling. He is very fast, he has a tonne of grit, and he has a non-stop motor. I also think he has a tonne of untapped offensive potential that has thus far been stymied due to Ottawa rushing him. This kid still has a lot of potential. Know who else I consider a strong part of the core? A strong manager. I am still relatively indifferent to Gulutzan as a coach, and I strongly feel he has a lot of seasoning to do yet (especially with managing his goaltenders and using coaching challenges/time-outs/line matching - Hartley was way stronger in all those areas), but his system seems to be one that works and is very much a modern system. I hope he does tweak it to utilize the defence more, sort of like how Hartley used them, but maybe quite to that extent, as every defender on the team now is strong in all areas of the ice. Hopefully Gulutzan can grow his game professional acumen a bit more and pick his spots a bit better - that will help a playoff series tremendously. Sutter was simply amazing at it. While Hartley was in no way elite at line-matching, he made Dejardins look like an idiot at it. Gulutzan seems like a bright guy, and it does seem to be a strong system, so I am betting he improves as a coach. Treliving is an ace up the Flames' sleeve. You know the guy is going to address a hole he sees, and manage the team's cap well. Sure, he has mistakes like Brouwer and Raymond, but he hits it out of the park in his trades and other signings. What I really feel is so very important when talking about winning the cup, is how the hockey ops department as a whole are doing. The recent hirings/promotions lead me to believe that they are doing a lot of things right. You need a strong hockey ops department these days to give you an edge. All in all, I think the Flames are a deep team with an elite defence and a bit of a question mark (again) in net. The positive thing for me is that this is a team well-positioned to take a long run at the cup. Even after Giordano has fallen-off, even after Hamonic and even Brodie get raises, there will be room in the cap (or trades to be made) to address these. The long-term outlook is definitely really strong, and I will argue it is probably the strongest in the west right now. Anaheim definitely matches Calgary on defence (at the very least, the Flames and Ducks are in the same tier, and preference dictates who you like better). Ducks are much better positioned in net today (with the Flames potentially closing that gap soon - I really believe in Parsons). Ducks are easily the better team on forward right now, but the Flames I argue are a bit deeper now, but not as elite. However, Getzlaf, Perry and crying Puke-Face are getting there in age, and while I like some of their young guys, they don't have anyone to fill those shoes long-term. I give the Flames the edge long term between those two teams. Arizona I don't think have enough good prospects. I don't think Dylan Strome is going to be elite. I don't think they have enough elite-level D on the way to close the gap with the Flames. They have some pieces that I really love (Keller, for instance), but just not enough pieces currently in their pipeline to make me believe that they will turn into a major threat. Vancouver is gaining a tonne of steam in their system. Really love some of their prospects, but they have had costly misses in the last few years. Who knows what they end up as. San Jose is getting there in age, and though it wouldn't surprise me to see them leap up in the standings again and make a strong push, they are going to start fading. Nasvhille is looking solid. They have to continue adding to their forwards for me to like them a lot, but who can argue with a Stanley Cup finals appearance while generally being a young team? Chicago is trending down. St Louis did a lot of great things this off-season, but do they have the horses organizationally to turn them into a contender again, and keep them there for the next 5 years? I do think that the next powerhouse team in the west is going to be Dallas. They have a lot of talent coming through, and made some really good moves that addressed their weaknesses. That's a strong group that is building still. Edmonton is a joke to me. An ugly, annoying joke. I think Chiarelli is terrible at managing the cap. I though (nervously) that it was management that was forcing his hand and making him trade away this high-end youth who dared to demand excessive salaries after their ELCs and who wouldn't take the proverbial old-school second contracts. I guess not. It seems to be him that hands out terrible contracts. I do think that McDavid's contract is fair - maybe even a relative bargain long-term - but Chiarelli has already saddled that team with expensive contracts that won't help that organization win long-term. They are going to be a very shallow team that relies on an elite top line (and it will be the best in the NHL, unfortunately), and an elite-level goalie (who needs another couple of seasons before we can start talking about him being an elite goalie - but he has been elite or near elite for them). I don't think the Oilers are well-positioned, and I don't think they draft well enough to become better positioned. I do think they draft much better since they fired their old scouting staff, but they don't seem to be getting enough quality players pushing up the pipeline. We will have to see. Either way, it will be tough to off-set the salaries of McDavid (as well as Draisaitl and Talbot long-term) when you have a few too many poor contracts on the books, without enough replacement level players off-setting those. Flames I feel are exceptionally well-positioned to make some strong runs. I do think that the 'core' is talented enough - elite defensively, offensively decent - with more room to grow. It is the entire organization that makes me confident right now that the Flames will at least come close at some point one of these years, but SHOULD be starting to make a lot more noise in the seasons to come.